2017 Truck Feature Selection – Heavy Hauler - RV-Dreams Community Forum

IrishRover · RV-Dreams Family Member

2017 Truck Feature Selection – Heavy Hauler

IrishRover · RV-Dreams Family Member

Sorry if will not let me enter the data - too long!!

Trade-Offs

· 2X4 or 4x4 Plan to go to Canada and Alaska and boondocking (off blacktop). Need a 4x4?

· Gear ratios – Heavy towing ability versus non-towing highway speed - 4.30 vs 4.40 vs 4.88

Option (of value?)

· Spare Tire – Heavy [150lb] but available versus waiting for Roadside assistance [Coach-Net, Good Sams]

· Extra fuel tanks – how much? Range (how far can you really drive in a day [~200 miles avg.] and economics [fill-up on good price deals] versus weight [6.943 lb/US gal] and more frequent diesel stops. Install in the chassis or in the RV Hauler truck bed?

· DEF tank level gauge

· Dual alternators

· Traction tires (rear 4) or 6

· Navigation system or just buy an RV GPS (e.g. Garmin RV770)?

· Rearview camera and prep kit

IrishRover · RV-Dreams Family Member

Some Major Specs (2017 Models, manufacturer data) [Partial]:-

	F550 2x4 DRW	F550 4x4 DRW	5500 2x4 DRW	5500 4x4 DRW
HP (hp/rpm)	330/2,600	330/2,600	320/2,800	320/2,800
Torque (lb-ft/rpm)	750/2,000	750/2,000	650/1,400	650/1,400
Base Curb Weight	8,030	8,030	8,330	8,853/8,588
Front GAWR	7,500	7,500	7000	7,000
Rear GAWR	14,706	13,660/14,706	13,500	13,500
GVWR	17,500	17,500	19,000	19,000

IrishRover · RV-Dreams Family Member

Cont'

	F550 2x4 DRW	F550 4x4 DRW	5500 2x4 DRW	5500 4x4 DRW
Max Payload	9,470	9,470	10,670	10,650/10,910
GCWR	35,000/40,000	35,000/40,000	26,000/38,500	26,000/38,500
5^th Wh Tow Cap	31,200	30,900	29,020	28,670
Brake size F/R	15.39/15.75	15.39/15.75
Wheel/tire size	19.5/ 225/70Rx19.5	19.5/ 225/70Rx19.5	19.5/	19.5/
Gear ratios	4.30/4.88	4.30/4.88	4.44/4.88	4.44/4.88
Fuel Tanks #/Gals Total	2, 66.5 gal	2, 66.5 gal	2, 74 gal	2, 74 gal

Bill and Linda · RV-Dreams Family Member

IrishRover wrote:

Lots of scary advice out there from truck and RV salespeople!! F350 will pull any 5^th wheel. Worst case a F-450. Even a suggestion of a F-350 SRW. Must be what they have on the lot. So, will wait until we make the final decision on the RV, but either way it will be heavy. So need advice and guidance.
________________________________________________________________________________________________

As you implied, do NOT buy the truck till you have the RV on-order. This is perhaps the #1 mistake people make. IMO, at 29K trailer weight or rating, none of the trucks you indicated are the proper selection for a 29K trailer. At 29K GVWR an HDT is the proper choice. Towing it is the easy part. Controlling and stopping it are the important points for consideration; especially in the trailer length you've indicated in other posts. These are serious size trailers. Going up the mountain is easy. Coming down, in a cross wind, or with failing / failed trailer brakes is another subject.

On edit: Some manufactures are reducing pin weight down in the 15% area to "allow" for "pickups" to carry the pin weight of these larger and longer trailers. As those who have towed before and have experience with the "light pin" percentages will tell you - bad idea. Sounds great from the sales guy. "You can use your 'pickup' to pull this semi-trailer size RV." Not so much a great idea in the real world, IMO. Light pins will make the trailer harder to control and some after-market manufactures are actually building modified pin boxes to help increase the pin weighs back toward or into the 20%+ region where they belong for best trailer control. OEM's sometimes lighten the pin by moving the axles more forward. This can also create a longer rear "swing radius" for the trailer making it more prone to hit something in a tight turn with the tail. This also decreases departure angle for the trailer which is a fancy way of saying rear-end drag on the ground. Not super major points, but ones to be aware of nonetheless.

Bill

-- Edited by Bill and Linda on Monday 8th of May 2017 12:28:18 PM

IrishRover · RV-Dreams Family Member

Thanks Bill, Ed, Neil. You experience and knowledge has been immensely helpful. I had zero knowledge and experience in January. Have done a ton of research, RV shows and reading and still feel like I know 10%, but still have no experience. But learning fast!

Looks like if we do anything past 24K GVWR, we need to consider a HDT. More to research. Thought that was just a Jack Mayer bias!!! I've had an email exchange with Jack and will visit with him and Danielle when they come to Colorado this Summer. Are there HDT users, other than Jack, on this forum? Seems like there are a bunch over in the Escapees forum. Started to lurk last night. I'm massively out of my depth there.

I did talk with Cole on what New Horizons are doing on their design that influences pin weight. They are now using the MORryde Stepabove entry steps. This has allowed them to move the axles forward a couple of inches. The result is a reduction of pin weight BUT an increase in tail swing. No free lunches.

Overall weight distribution is still key. The placement and weight of slides, generators, appliances, tanks (full/partially), batteries and cargo are key. And having the right vehicle to pull AND stop it.

Neil and Connie · RV-Dreams Family Member

What Bill said.

You really need to run the actual numbers for your actual rig (or as close to actual weights as you can figure out) then figure out a truck.

As one example…our 39' New Horizons Majestic has a loaded towing weight of 23,320 and a pin of 5820. With 25 gallons of water on board, full fuel and 2 passengers in our RAM 5500HD with hauler bed…the closest limit we have is rear axle and we still have 1800 or so pounds remaining.

If you're really in the. 29,000 range…then it's pretty simple…you almost surely need an HDT…but run the numbers to make sure. Bill's our truck number expert 'round these parts and he'll will agree to run the numbers first…but that you're likely in HDT range.

One thing you need to be careful of is what HDT you buy…there's one that a lot of folks have that's fairly small for an HDT…sorry, can't remember the exact make/model but Bill will be able to fill it in…there was one at the NHOG rally last year. Anyways…although I haven't run the numbers for that truck…I believe that Bill has and the 5500HD actually has more usable rear axle load than it does. So it's not just "get an HDT" or "get a 5500"…it's get the right truck.

Jack will tell you…and he's mostly correct…that the HDT isn't much longer or wider than a 5500 and hence is just as easy to drive. YMMV on that one…but the extra height would make it difficult for me to think it's as easy. Then there's the whole "do you know anything about HDTs" issue…there are a lot of things on an HDT that need additional maintenance, checking and such…and not being an HDT guy I don't even know what I don't know.

I've been told that the 550 is not a good choice due to the derating of the engine…but don't really have any firm details on that one. As you know by now…the first limit you reach on the truck is usually rear axle load.

We pulled our NH with a 2012 F450 for 4 years…and since we had air bags on the truck and hydraulic disks with ABS on the trailer had no issues stopping or going up/down hills but then the trailer has plenty of brakes on it's own. What drove us to the 5500 was (a) overload on the rear axle…although we were well within the safety factor built into the design we were technically over the limit and (b) the high bed rails on the 450 meant that we kept banging the trailer into the bed rails and dinging up the bottom of the bedroom.

If you get the 5500…it comes with a 50ish gallon fuel tank at the rear so the spare needs to go up on the hauler bed or under the trailer if you have space. You can get a second OEM tank up forward…20ish gallons but it takes up the space that Classy Chassis (at least) uses for the air tank for the LinkAir suspension…not sure if they can relocate the tank to another location under the truck or not.

Bill and Linda · RV-Dreams Family Member

IrishRover wrote:
Thanks Bill, Ed, Neil. You experience and knowledge has been immensely helpful. I had zero knowledge and experience in January. Have done a ton of research, RV shows and reading and still feel like I know 10%, but still have no experience. But learning fast!

Looks like if we do anything past 24K GVWR, we need to consider a HDT. More to research. Thought that was just a Jack Mayer bias!!! I've had an email exchange with Jack and will visit with him and Danielle when they come to Colorado this Summer. Are there HDT users, other than Jack, on this forum? Seems like there are a bunch over in the Escapees forum. Started to lurk last night. I'm massively out of my depth there.

I did talk with Cole on what New Horizons are doing on their design that influences pin weight. They are now using the MORryde Stepabove entry steps. This has allowed them to move the axles forward a couple of inches. The result is a reduction of pin weight BUT an increase in tail swing. No free lunches.

Overall weight distribution is still key. The placement and weight of slides, generators, appliances, tanks (full/partially), batteries and cargo are key. And having the right vehicle to pull AND stop it.

Couple of comments - I agree with Neil's post above. Covers the basis very well. Jack is the HDT guy. He loves 'em and has been try to sell me one for a long time as a friend. I don't need one or want one. But I do need an MDT and that's what the 5500HD is. A class 5 truck in a pickup cab wrapper. At 29K one simply needs a real HDT. It's just math, not opinion. The F-450, nor any "pickup," is simply not appropriate to tow a 29K trailer. If you will notice all the marketing pictures (and tests) show a gooseneck trailer. Why? Because that's the only way to get a 30K trailer with a light enough pin not to overload the rear axle. Lots of posts explaining this on the forum. Hauler beds are many times simply a requirement if one doesn't want to eventually run the pickup bed rails into the trailer. Being "careful" is simply not the answer. It will happen. Besides, the storage space is very helpful.

The axle move forward with the MORryde steps on the NH is sorta OK IMO if the pin weight stays at or above 20%. Some of this axle move by NH is because people keep making the "front' of the rig longer and that's just really run the pin weights up. Some in the 7K+ region. Naturally an HDT can handle this but if the HDT is "singled" (one axle) and carries a Smart Car even a Volvo 710 can start pushing the DOT limits of 20K per axle. (Lots to know isn't there.) So, its math and I can give you the really close numbers for a max trailer weight on a 5500HD. With a 5500HD you will generally run out of GCVWR (combined) before you run out of pin weight. But not always. If you don't want an HDT then one has to design the trailer based on the truck. Simple as that.

Other considerations: Do you want to travel with a separate car or drive the truck as the "touring" vehicle. While I have great respect for my friend Jack, we don't want a separate car, so we're not driving a 710 Volvo around "touring." Jack and Danielle use a Smart Car. We don't prefer that option. The Ram 5500HD with air ride does super for us in that application. A choice.

Enjoy the hunt and learning process. Seems like your beginning to get a little handle on this.

Bill

IrishRover · RV-Dreams Family Member

Thanks Bill,

I am using the Changin' Gear Fifth Wheel Weight Calculator tool - http://changingears.com/rv-sec-calc-trailer-weight-fw.shtml to look at the various limits - GVWR, RGAWR and GCWR. I still have a lot of variables I need to account for fully - hauler bed weight, hitch, aux fuel tanks, cargo etc. to really get an accurate number. Plus obviously have not designed/selected the RV!! Select the RV first!! But there is a trade-off as you indicated.

Based on your own setup on the 5500HD, hauler bed and typical cargo/options, or equivalent 2017 5500/F-550 (data below) where do you see the upper trailer GCWR/pin weight being with some reasonable safety margin? [> 24K, <29K]. What gear ratio do you run 4.44 or 4.88? 2x4 or 4x4? What does your 5500HD weight all loaded up, but not towing? I am a technical/engineering type too, but EE. Don't hold that against me.

Some Major Specs (2017 Models, manufacturer data) [Partial], Ford has out-spec'ed Ram (for now) starting in 2017:-

	F550 2x4 DRW	F550 4x4 DRW	5500 2x4 DRW	5500 4x4 DRW
HP (hp/rpm)	330/2,600	330/2,600	320/2,800	320/2,800
Torque (lb-ft/rpm)	750/2,000	750/2,000	650/1,400	650/1,400
Base Curb Weight	8,030	8,030	8,330	8,853/8,588
Front GAWR	7,500	7,500	7000	7,000
Rear GAWR	14,706	13,660/14,706	13,500	13,500
GVWR	17,500	17,500	19,000	19,000

Max Payload	9,470	9,470	10,670	10,650/10,910
GCWR (4.44/4.88)	35,000/40,000	35,000/40,000	26,000/38,500	26,000/38,500
5^th Wh Tow Cap	31,200	30,900	29,020	28,670

I'm currently along the same thinking lines as you - don't want an HDT as a towing vehicle or a touring vehicle. And don't want to add a smart car - scary on the other end - too light, potential hood ornament (for a 5500HD!!! disbelief ), or as a third (or fourth vehicle - UTV). Cole (NH) gave me the potential 29,000 GVWR for a 45' toy hauler as a rough estimate, but no pin weight. Would have to assume around 4,350 (15%) to 5,800 (20%) to 7,270 (25% wow). The DRV JX450 is quoted as 24,000 GVWR, 18,800 Dry and triple 8K axles. No stated pin weight. That would be minus a lot of expected residential options.

Decisions, decisions! confuse

Gerry and Pat.

Bill and Linda · RV-Dreams Family Member

IrishRover wrote:
Thanks Bill,

I am using the Changin' Gear Fifth Wheel Weight Calculator tool - http://changingears.com/rv-sec-calc-trailer-weight-fw.shtml to look at the various limits - GVWR, RGAWR and GCWR. I still have a lot of variables I need to account for fully - hauler bed weight, hitch, aux fuel tanks, cargo etc. to really get an accurate number. Plus obviously have not designed/selected the RV!! Select the RV first!! But there is a trade-off as you indicated.
Based on your own setup on the 5500HD, hauler bed and typical cargo/options, or equivalent 2017 5500/F-550 (data below) where do you see the upper trailer GCWR/pin weight being with some reasonable safety margin? [> 24K, <29K]. What gear ratio do you run 4.44 or 4.88? 2x4 or 4x4? What does your 5500HD weight all loaded up, but not towing? I am a technical/engineering type too, but EE. Don't hold that against me.

I'm currently along the same thinking lines as you - don't want an HDT as a towing vehicle or a touring vehicle. And don't want to add a smart car - scary on the other end - too light, potential hood ornament (for a 5500HD!!!), or as a third (or fourth vehicle - UTV). Cole (NH) gave me the potential 29,000 GVWR for a 45' toy hauler as a rough estimate, but no pin weight. Would have to assume around 4,350 (15%) to 5,800 (20%) to 7,270 (25% wow). The DRV JX450 is quoted as 24,000 GVWR, 18,800 Dry and triple 8K axles. No stated pin weight. That would be minus a lot of expected residential options.
Decisions, decisions!
Gerry and Pat.

Gerry, I'm an engineer type and so is Neil, different disciplines but we think like you. Here's the cut to the chase on all those numbers. As I said, you will run out of combined weight way before rear axle rating and pin weight.

The following is based on known CAT scales weights of a 2016 Ram 5500HD - 4WD (which I recommend) Classy Chassis Hauler bed - lots of tools - aux fuel with ~112 gallons on board, etc., etc. For towing its a 4.88 rear end to get the max tow package with extra cooling / heat protection, etc. and the commercial grade -69 transmission. Don't even think about not doing the max tow package thing as I can climb a hill at WOT for 10 minutes and the temps don't go up and neither do the trans temps. "No drama" as Neil and I like to say, going up or down hill. The truck has an excellent exhaust brake and that is a necessity IMO.

Bottom line give or take a few lbs: 26,600 trailer with a 7,400lb pin (which is over 29% which is likewise impossible.) As I said, the GCVWR runs out way before the pin and RAWR. Now, the truck will handle more trailer for sure and some are doing so just fine. However, if your an engineering type and want to stay within all the numbers, there they are, short version with known scale truck weights full-up and ready for travel. These are commercial grade trucks so they have totally different engine calibrations and I can give you those power curves if your curious as you get more serious. Everything is de-rated for long service in the commercial world.

Now you can go muse . . . and Pat can think interiors.

Bill

-- Edited by Bill and Linda on Wednesday 10th of May 2017 02:17:49 PM

IrishRover · RV-Dreams Family Member

Thanks Bill. Appreciate all the information and guidance.

Bill and Linda · RV-Dreams Family Member

IrishRover wrote:
Thanks Bill,

I am using the Changin' Gear Fifth Wheel Weight Calculator tool - http://changingears.com/rv-sec-calc-trailer-weight-fw.shtml to look at the various limits - GVWR, RGAWR and GCWR. I still have a lot of variables I need to account for fully - hauler bed weight, hitch, aux fuel tanks, cargo etc. to really get an accurate number. Plus obviously have not designed/selected the RV!! Select the RV first!! But there is a trade-off as you indicated.
Some Major Specs (2017 Models, manufacturer data) [Partial], Ford has out-spec'ed Ram (for now) starting in 2017:-

F550 2x4 DRW
F550 4x4 DRW
5500 2x4 DRW
5500 4x4 DRW
HP (hp/rpm)
330/2,600
330/2,600
320/2,800
320/2,800
Torque (lb-ft/rpm)
750/2,000
750/2,000
650/1,400
650/1,400
Base Curb Weight
8,030
8,030
8,330
8,853/8,588
Front GAWR
7,500
7,500
7000
7,000
Rear GAWR
14,706
13,660/14,706
13,500
13,500
GVWR
17,500
17,500
19,000
19,000
Max Payload
9,470
9,470
10,670
10,650/10,910
GCWR (4.44/4.88)
35,000/40,000
35,000/40,000
26,000/38,500
26,000/38,500
5^th Wh Tow Cap
31,200
30,900
29,020
28,670
I'm currently along the same thinking lines as you - don't want an HDT as a towing vehicle or a touring vehicle. And don't want to add a smart car - scary on the other end - too light, potential hood ornament (for a 5500HD!!!), or as a third (or fourth vehicle - UTV). Cole (NH) gave me the potential 29,000 GVWR for a 45' toy hauler as a rough estimate, but no pin weight. Would have to assume around 4,350 (15%) to 5,800 (20%) to 7,270 (25% wow). The DRV JX450 is quoted as 24,000 GVWR, 18,800 Dry and triple 8K axles. No stated pin weight. That would be minus a lot of expected residential options.
Decisions, decisions!
Gerry and Pat.

Gerry: I should have checked this chart for accuracy. The Ram numbers are all wrong. Haven't double checked the Ford but nonetheless they're wrong. Best to get these from the OEM websites direct and by specific model. I just downloaded the 2017 numbers and that moves the trailer number up to 26,600, same pin at 7,400. The HP and torque numbers are also incorrect where ever they came from. They're higher.

I've seen a lot of marketing stuff, especially from second party, that don't cull the numbers correctly. Just because someone prints it in a review doesn't make it correct. :)

Bill

IrishRover · RV-Dreams Family Member

Bill,

These were from the Ford and Ram specific chassis cab OEM sites (see below)!!!!!!!! All 2017 current data. Crew Cab, 2x4 and 4x4, F-550 Lariat or 5500 Laramie models, 60" CA, 6.7L Turbo Diesel and 4.88 gearing. The power and torque are the published commercial chassis cab "derated" values.

Ram:

https://www.ramtrucks.com/assets/towing_guide/pdf/2017_ram_chassis_cab_towing_specs.pdf

https://www.ramtrucks.com/en/towing_guide/

use Chassis Cab selection.

Ford:

http://www.ford.com/commercial-trucks/chassis-cab/2017/models/f550-lariat/

https://www.fleet.ford.com/truckbbas/topics/2017/2017_F-350_F-450_F-550_SD_Chassis_Cabs_-_Specs.pdf

Might be my reading or interpretation!

Bill and Linda · RV-Dreams Family Member

IrishRover wrote:
Bill,

These were from the Ford and Ram specific chassis cab OEM sites (see below)!!!!!!!! All 2017 current data. Crew Cab, 2x4 and 4x4, F-550 Lariat or 5500 Laramie models, 60" CA, 6.7L Turbo Diesel and 4.88 gearing. The power and torque are the published commercial chassis cab "derated" values.
Ram:
https://www.ramtrucks.com/assets/towing_guide/pdf/2017_ram_chassis_cab_towing_specs.pdf
https://www.ramtrucks.com/en/towing_guide/
use Chassis Cab selection.
Might be my reading or interpretation!

Your at the right place, wrong page I believe of the Ram specs.

Go to page 22 of the link you referenced. https://www.ramtrucks.com/en/towing_guide/

I know you referenced this above but I don't think we're on the same page of the document even though it looks so.

Top Section of page 22. Crew Cab 60" CA 4WD 6.7 Diesel A6 AS69RC transmission. That's where my numbers came from. Didn't check nor dispute the new 2017 F-550 numbers. Only commented on the Ram numbers you listed in your chart as they were in variance to what I had in hand.

Yes, Ford and Ram de-rate the commercial engines. Been doing that "forever." In the 3500HD commercial series GM/Chevy no longer de-rates but that's another class of truck. Not class V.

Bill

Neil and Connie · RV-Dreams Family Member

IrishRover wrote:
hauler bed weight

Don't know the hauler bed weight…but the dry weight of the 60CA 5500 should be in the specs and our truck…bed, full fuel, TrailerSaver TSLB2 hitch, stuff in bins, and 1 pax is 5580/5900 pounds. You can do the numbers for the "bed" weight (which includes fuel, hitch and cargo) from there. I think the dry weight of the 5500 as delivered is 8,300 which would give a weight of 3180 for the bed, tank, 60 gallons of fuel, hitch, 1 pax, and tools…taking all the other stuff out of the weight comes up with estimate for the bed and empty tank of about 1,300. My pin is 5460. With 13,500 RAWR and a towing rear axle load of 11,360 that gives me another 2,140 pounds of rear axle which would work out to (with my 23% ration) 6,867 pounds more trailer weight before maxing the rear axle which would be a 31,187 trailer…but that would put me over GCVR. At 37,500 for the 5500 that limits me to a 26,000 pound trailer.

So…amazingly enough…once again I agree with Bill and you need an HDT if you really have a 29,000 pound trailer.

Ain't math great

IrishRover · RV-Dreams Family Member

Neil and Connie wrote:
IrishRover wrote:
hauler bed weight
Don't know the hauler bed weight…but the dry weight of the 60CA 5500 should be in the specs and our truck…bed, full fuel, TrailerSaver TSLB2 hitch, stuff in bins, and 1 pax is 5580/5900 pounds. You can do the numbers for the "bed" weight (which includes fuel, hitch and cargo) from there. I think the dry weight of the 5500 as delivered is 8,300 which would give a weight of 3180 for the bed, tank, 60 gallons of fuel, hitch, 1 pax, and tools…taking all the other stuff out of the weight comes up with estimate for the bed and empty tank of about 1,300. My pin is 5460. With 13,500 RAWR and a towing rear axle load of 11,360 that gives me another 2,140 pounds of rear axle which would work out to (with my 23% ration) 6,867 pounds more trailer weight before maxing the rear axle which would be a 31,187 trailer…but that would put me over GCVR. At 37,500 for the 5500 that limits me to a 26,000 pound trailer.
So…amazingly enough…once again I agree with Bill and you need an HDT if you really have a 29,000 pound trailer.
Ain't math great

Thanks Neil,

This will drive me to spreadsheet heaven to see how all the pieces fit and the trade-offs. I think Bill and I are in sync now on the 5500 numbers - will check tonight. Wrong page!! Looks like we need to drive the trailer to be in the sub 27,000 GVWR range (3 9K axles!), as a HDT is not in my future! I still have to visit Jack and I'm sure he will be on me about that direction. I did speak with Cole yesterday and he is going to get a more accurate estimate of recently produced units. He is also planning to be at NHOG with the latest Majestic model.

Ultimately I may have to lose a few pounds and leave that extra socket set at home. biggrin I know someone else in the household that would agree on that no matter how the GVWR turns out. disbelief

Gerry

Bill and Linda · RV-Dreams Family Member

IrishRover wrote:
Neil and Connie wrote:
IrishRover wrote:
hauler bed weight
Don't know the hauler bed weight…but the dry weight of the 60CA 5500 should be in the specs and our truck…bed, full fuel, TrailerSaver TSLB2 hitch, stuff in bins, and 1 pax is 5580/5900 pounds. You can do the numbers for the "bed" weight (which includes fuel, hitch and cargo) from there. I think the dry weight of the 5500 as delivered is 8,300 which would give a weight of 3180 for the bed, tank, 60 gallons of fuel, hitch, 1 pax, and tools…taking all the other stuff out of the weight comes up with estimate for the bed and empty tank of about 1,300. My pin is 5460. With 13,500 RAWR and a towing rear axle load of 11,360 that gives me another 2,140 pounds of rear axle which would work out to (with my 23% ration) 6,867 pounds more trailer weight before maxing the rear axle which would be a 31,187 trailer…but that would put me over GCVR. At 37,500 for the 5500 that limits me to a 26,000 pound trailer.
So…amazingly enough…once again I agree with Bill and you need an HDT if you really have a 29,000 pound trailer.
Ain't math great
Thanks Neil,
This will drive me to spreadsheet heaven to see how all the pieces fit and the trade-offs. I think Bill and I are in sync now on the 5500 numbers - will check tonight. Wrong page!! Looks like we need to drive the trailer to be in the sub 27,000 GVWR range (3 9K axles!), as a HDT is not in my future! I still have to visit Jack and I'm sure he will be on me about that direction. I did speak with Cole yesterday and he is going to get a more accurate estimate of recently produced units. He is also planning to be at NHOG with the latest Majestic model.
Ultimately I may have to lose a few pounds and leave that extra socket set at home. I know someone else in the household that would agree on that no matter how the GVWR turns out.
Gerry

Gerry:

Yep, if your on page 22 we're on the same page. {Grin} But Ford or Ram makes no significant difference max trailer weight wise. So, to hijack Neil's answer -- Keep this in mind at least with the NH: The CCC of the NH is (check this out with Cole) supposed to be at least 3,000lbs. That doesn't mean it won't be 4,000 and you may not need all that. Mine was close to 5,500 and even with full water and full "shoe load" we're way below that. "It depends" - mostly, naturally, on the dry weight of the rig.

BTW, I wouldn't do 9K axles. That's another conversation but is my opinion.

I'd be happy to redo my spreadsheet for the 2017 model truck and sent it to you. But you know the drill and so do the math and see what you come up with. You'll get a better picture. I've just done so many of these sheets eventually the numbers just sink into this old brain and I sort of know the back of the envelope numbers. What matters, what doesn't.

Please do note the CAT scale weights I gave you for the truck. Those are known numbers and your truck will be close to them. Add another 350lbs or so if you go with 100 gallon aux tank instead of 60 gallons and maybe 150lbs more for the biggest air-ride hitch beyond the CAT scale numbers I gave you just for bracketing. But at the end of the day 27K is certainly it for the trailer GVWR without an HDT. However, one can have 27K GVWR with a NH and the rig come off the line at 23,200 "dry." It just depends and then the actual weight depends on your "sfuff" and water. Cole can give you an estimate but don't take any estimate as gospel accurate and push the numbers, IMO. "Ask me how I know this." Stuff happens.

FWIW and IMO the Ford or the Ram will both do a good and probably equal job as long as the F-550 is a 2017 with the upgrades to the 2017 model truck.

Bill

IrishRover · RV-Dreams Family Member

Right page (22), picked the wrong row - too much late night reading.

Thanks, Bill

Off to play with a spreadsheet, and think through a LiFePo4 Solar system. Future posting.

LarryW21 · RV-Dreams Family Member

Why would you want to pull a 24k to 29k anything up to Alaska other than to stay for a long, long while?

Neil and Connie · RV-Dreams Family Member

LarryW21 wrote:
Why would you want to pull a 24k to 29k anything up to Alaska other than to stay for a long, long while?

Why not…whatever RV you have is the one you have. I suppose if you're really interested in keeping the exterior looking showroom pristine…but at least Connie and I got it to use it so pulling to Alaska certainly fit the bill.

The roads in Alaska are actually not nearly as bad as folks who've never been there would have you believe. The AlCan Highway is 4 lane 55mph road almost the entire length. Of our 5,000 mile caravan through AB, BC, Yukon and AK…we probably had 300 miles of dirt/gravel road but it was well maintained and one could easily keep up 30-35 miles an hour on it.

Sure…the rig got dusty…and sure we got some minor damage to the skirt under the bedroom of the 5ver…but that's just part of the price of doing bidness…we would go again in a heartbeat.

We weren't even the biggest rig in the caravan…we had two 44-46 foot Class As along with us as well as several other 40 foot 5vers.

We've been on worse roads in several states in the lower 48.

Bill and Linda · RV-Dreams Family Member

LarryW21 wrote:
Why would you want to pull a 24k to 29k anything up to Alaska other than to stay for a long, long while?

Why not if we waned to? Done Alaska twice and a third trip to the the Canadian Northwest Territory within 70 miles of the Arctic Ocean. (That's where the road stops in the summer. Had to take a 172 the rest of he way to the Arctic Ocean.) Had the rig on the ferry to Newfoundland last year. Neat trip. Hope to return to Alaska in maybe another two years. It's what we bought the rig to do - travel in comfort and see stuff.

As to the rig sizes, well, if one goes there you will find rigs of all sizes and weights. It's a choice and none are wrong depending on your criteria. I could say, why would one want to spend 4 months in a truck camper? But if one wanted to that's just fine for them. Their choice and good for them.

BART · RV-Dreams Community Member

Awhile back you asked if there were other RVer's that pull with an HDT..
We do- I had to do a Name change on the forum here so.....
Old name was Alie&Jims Carrilite but we got locked out somehow. Came back as BART..Big A%% Red Truck... 1998 Volvo 610 with Famous Red Flames on the hood!
We towed with a (now ancient) 2006 Dodge dually with a ton of mods on it. But no matter what I did, it was an experience having 19500lbs behind 8800lbs on long downhill grade with wind pushing from the side. Also had a near accident where body panels from a vehicle - barrel rolling down the highway in front of us- wiped out our RV braking ability. The truck could not control the RV.
Our Carrilite is not light. It rolls at 19500 with Zero water and dry tanks. Water tank is in front of the front compartment, so any water is carried on the pin. Pin weighs 4850lbs most days with no water. We try to carry 10-15 gallons for bathroom breaks if needed.
When we bought BART, it was a cheaper option than a new 3500 or 4500 at the time. Having a large truck is NOT for everyone, but for us it works.
Today if someone gave me a brand new 5500 Dodge optioned out with all the bells and whistles and hauler bed, I might be tempted to keep it, but I'd probably trade it for a newer HDT!

Neil and Connie · RV-Dreams Family Member

The perceived but not actually problems with "pulling a heavy RV to Alaska" are two. First is the idea that the roads are bad…as you've seen several times they're actually pretty good. From our perspective on our 15 trip with ya'll…the worst road we faced was the one down to Valdez…and it was fully paved…but it was across the permafrost and it was like being in a submarine in a sea state 4…really bad as far as riding conditions went. Top of the World Highway on the other hand…was a very nice rid even though it was dirt and gravel except for the 20 or so miles between the turnoff to Eagle and the border into Yukon. The other problem is that far too many RVers treat their RVs like one would treat a Corvette convertible or Rolls Royce…they are trying to make sure it has no dings in it when they eventually sell it.

We…like you…think differently…the darn thing was bought to be used and while we'll get something out of it when we sell it (eventually)…that's not really a serious consideration to us. We want to go places, see things, and take the road less traveled by. As one of the blogs I follow says…Life's journey is to to show up at the gravesite with a perfectly preserved body…life's journey is to skid in sideways yelling "What a ride!!." We RV for the experiences…and if the RV gets dinged up a bit in the process…oh well.

You already know all of this of course…but I was adding the reply for others who may not for their consideration.

Speaking of Alaska again in another 2 years…we should talk about this. We would definitely go again…but not with a caravan. Would really like to go with you and Linda and we could go to the good parts (Denali for example) again and skip then so good parts (Hyder for example). We're going to try the Maritimes again in 2018 but could definitely see another trip to AK in our future if we were traveling with you two.

-- Edited by Neil and Connie on Saturday 13th of May 2017 05:31:45 PM

Bill and Linda · RV-Dreams Family Member

Neil and Connie wrote:
We…like you…think differently…the darn thing was bought to be used and while we'll get something out of it when we sell it (eventually)…that's not really a serious consideration to us. We want to go places, see things, and take the road less traveled by. As one of the blogs I follow says…Life's journey is to to show up at the gravesite with a perfectly preserved body…life's journey is to skid in sideways yelling "What a ride!!." We RV for the experiences…and if the RV gets dinged up a bit in the process…oh well.
You already know all of this of course…but I was adding the reply for others who may not for their consideration.
Speaking of Alaska again in another 2 years…we should talk about this. We would definitely go again…but not with a caravan. Would really like to go with you and Linda and we could go to the good parts (Denali for example) again and skip then so good parts (Hyder for example). We're going to try the Maritimes again in 2018 but could definitely see another trip to AK in our future if we were traveling with you two.

-- Edited by Neil and Connie on Saturday 13th of May 2017 05:31:45 PM

Yea, I could take your cooking on another AK trip. Agree, just the outstanding parts of which there are many including the trip up the Alcan and the Alaska range. Haven't really missed anything in the two cities. Too much like the rest of the US. But I could definitely take a few days in Haines going to the fishery for right from the bay fish for dinner. Never seen a freezer.

But yea, while we all want the rigs and truck to look good, its just paint. If you take a look at the KZ Escalade that made the trip to Alaska and also to the Northwest Territories which James and Cindy bought (sorta) from us, it still looks great. No big deal. Not for everyone but doable in almost any rig, IMO, IF it and the truck are properly prepared.

Meet you in Dawson Creek, BC? :)

ka0dqz · RV-Dreams Community Member

Well, Irish Rover, I would not even consider a trailer at that weight with a F-550 or 5500 Ram. Whatever you get you need at least a 20% margin of capacity in the tow vehicle.

I drove a semi for 22 years, so I have some knowledge in this area. I live in Colorado, my 5er only weighs 12,500 GVWR. I pull it with a 2005 International 9400i Eagle 6x6 with

a Cummins ISX at 450hp. With the 3 stage Jake Brake, I can leave Golden on I-70 and go to Grand Junction and never touch the brakes. I get 11-14mpg depending on how fast I

drive. To me this is just a large pickup. I like to sit up high and see far ahead. The truck will carry 300 gal of fuel so I can pick and choose where to fill up. The truck runs at 1400-1500 rpm.

You will never wear it out. Diesels are meant to be high torque LOW rpm engines. This truck has 1650 ft pounds of torque. In a 30mph direct crosswind I don't even notice it. One consideration

you have to take in is the difference in wheel size. The truck has 22.5's and the trailer has 16's. With that difference in diameter at 65mph in the truck the trailer tires are turning just over 91mph.

So you will need better tires on the trailer. You will get the best mileage at 55-57mph. I would certainly look at HDT's, they have a lot of benefits and creature comforts that other vehicles do not offer.

With an HDT regardless of what RV you have, you will not have to worry about the tail wagging the dog. Hope this helps. If I can help you, feel free to contact me.

Bill and Linda · RV-Dreams Family Member

ka0dqz wrote:
you have to take in is the difference in wheel size. The truck has 22.5's and the trailer has 16's. With that difference in diameter at 65mph in the truck the trailer tires are turning just over 91mph.
So you will need better tires on the trailer. You will get the best mileage at 55-57mph.

As a point of information: The tires DRV and NH normally make available for the heavier trailers are 17.5" commercial grade G114 "H" tires. These specific trailer tires, unlike some others, have a specific tire road speed rating of 75 MPH at any given recommended inflation for the appropriate trailer weight. I.e. that rating is not limited to the maximum inflation level. The diameter of the tire is taken into consideration by the manufacture as to the constant road speed rating.

I agree on the "best" MPG speed as slower reduces wind resistance considerable and the math confirms that depending on the truck gearing. YMMV

Neil and Connie · RV-Dreams Family Member

Bill and Linda wrote:
Yea, I could take your cooking on another AK trip. Agree, just the outstanding parts of which there are many including the trip up the Alcan and the Alaska range. Haven't really missed anything in the two cities. Too much like the rest of the US. But I could definitely take a few days in Haines going to the fishery for right from the bay fish for dinner. Never seen a freezer.
Meet you in Dawson Creek, BC? :)

We'll discuss this in more detail when next we meet in what my old unix buddy called Meat Space…for actual face to face communication. We're already thinking about Maritimes for 18 but could definitely see another AK trip in 19.

Terry and Jo · RV-Dreams Family Member

Gerry,

I may have missed it in all the discussions above, but I don't remember anyone speaking to the rear axle ratio. If you end up going with an HDT, it will be different, but for pickups/truck-hauler bed rigs, the 4:88 ratio will give you more pulling power, but the lower ratings (4:30 or 4:40) will give you better mile per gallon. If you plan on mountain passes and aren't too concerned with fuel costs, I'd go 4:88.

Jo and I have a 2008 Ford F450 with 4:88 rear axle ratio, and while I've not pulled many passes/high grade hills, I'm very pleased with it. I do have to confess that the slowest I ever got with towing our 18,500# Mobile Suites was something like 30 mph going up Sherman Hill on I-80 in Wyoming. (Highest elevation in all of I-80.) However, that was because my fuel filters decided that they had had enough. Stopped in Laramie that night and had Ford check it out and replace the filters. Truck ran like a scalded cat the next day.

Terry

nineback · RV-Dreams Community Member

I know this post is a little old but I just saw it. This doesn't make sense to me. The speed at which the trailer tires turn has nothing to do with the size of the truck tires. 65 mph is 65 mph and the trailer tire rotation is based on the size of the trailer tires. You could pull the trailer with a TV using 13 inch tires or 22 inch tires and the trailer tires will turn at the same speed. I agree with the idea of better tires but not because the TV has bigger tires.

Tom

ka0dqz wrote:
you have to take in is the difference in wheel size. The truck has 22.5's and the trailer has 16's. With that difference in diameter at 65mph in the truck the trailer tires are turning just over 91mph.

RonC · RV-Dreams Family Member

I can only assume he's attempting to relate the rpm's of a 16 inch wheel at 65 mph to be equal to a 22 1/2 inch rpm's at 91 mph. Of course that is "tru-ish", but not relevant. Bigger wheels do turn fewer rpm's for any given road speed than a smaller wheel, but each is designed for that.

-- Edited by RonC on Tuesday 13th of June 2017 09:00:02 PM

BiggarView · RV-Dreams Family Member

The tread of the tire is still travelling the same speed rotationally as a larger or smaller tire. The only difference tire diameter makes in this part of such a discussion is RPMs as it travels down the road. It is simple math. A 30.5 inch tire would make approx. 11 revolutions in one second at 60MPH, a 15.25 inch tire (by way of comparison) would make 22 revolutions in one second at 60MPH... but both tires still only have vectored velocity of 60MPH because both tires cover the same ground in that one second.

-- Edited by BiggarView on Wednesday 14th of June 2017 09:22:37 AM