New Gas vs. Used DP - RV-Dreams Community Forum

Tashinhurst · RV-Dreams Community Member

New Gas vs. Used DP

Lonney Wade · RV-Dreams Family Member

Gas vs diesel, I would go with the diesel.
In my younger days, I was into racing with gas engines, if I had known what I know now I would have gone with diesel engines the power they make is unbelievable, plus better gas mileage and more torque, and the best of all, longer engine life.
Gas engines are expensive to build to make a lot of power and torque.

Lonney

Barbaraok · RV-Dreams Family Member

36' or longer, go with the DP. Going to do 10K miles or more a year, go with the DP. Going to go over the Rockies 2-4 times a year, go with the DP. Shorter unit, mainly in the midwest-east, less than 7K miles a year, go with the gasser.

Barb

Russ Ranger · RV-Dreams Family Member

Good advice from Barb. We choose to go with a 34' Monaco with Ford V-10 gas. We tow a Honda Fit. We did 11,000 mile circling the USA in 2013-2014. This year we are doing less miles.

I worried about a gas powered motorhome before beginning our journey. It's been two years at the end of June and we are happy with our choice to go with gas.

Would we increase size or change to diesel? At this point I am more than content with the performance of our V-10.

The bigger question in choosing the size of an RV seems to be the size and depth of the slide-outs. We've been in motorhomes with narrow side-outs that feel crowded. A 34' RV with big slide-outs will have more square footage and feel bigger than a 36' or 38' with narrow slides.

With the cost of gas as your fuel, it is a much harder decision than it was when diesel was cheaper. They both go down the road just fine.

Enjoy the adventure of deciding.

Jim01 · RV-Dreams Family Member

Another thing to consider when deciding between gas and diesel is that many diesel motor homes have a larger cargo carrying capacity "ccc" than gas units do. Mainly because most have a heavier chassis than the gas units do.

Good luck with your search.

Jim

Tashinhurst · RV-Dreams Community Member

Thanks for the added information. My children live in Colorado so that does factor into the equation as a big plus for diesel. I guess the worries involved with a used DP are expired warranties, past maintainence concerns, ect...I do like the added heft that the diesel gives. Is $125k seem like a price where we could purchase a decent used DP?

Trabuco · RV-Dreams Family Member

For $125k you should be able to find a nice DP. Depending on how far up the equipment class you go you should be able to find something in the 5 year old range.

TRAILERKING · RV-Dreams Family Member

Go with the diesel pusher for sure. Especially if you're going to be "Full-Timin". Just be sure you are well aware of your "Air-Brake" equipped coach. Take what ever course required and get whatever certification you need. Other than that............It's a breeze.

Barbaraok · RV-Dreams Family Member

Tashinhurst wrote:
Thanks for the added information. My children live in Colorado so that does factor into the equation as a big plus for diesel. I guess the worries involved with a used DP are expired warranties, past maintainence concerns, ect...I do like the added heft that the diesel gives. Is $125k seem like a price where we could purchase a decent used DP?

We set aside 10% of our purchase price for our used diesel (in 2005 when it was 3 years old) and have added to our maintenance fund every month. When something needs to be fixed, we fix it. We replace things that we find are worn, but not yet broken, which an extended service contract would not do. We never have to haggle over just fixing a part of an assembly, just fix the assembly. I realize that not everyone can do this, but for us this has worked well and we use the fund not only for repairs but also for replacement of things like tires and batteries on our schedule and for routine maintenance. BTW - we still have the same coach and she is still going. Have little things to replace this year, but that is to be expected.

Barb

The Bear II · RV-Dreams Family Member

As others have indicated the power of a diesel can't be beat.

Depending on the diesel engine and transmission used in the MH it may have an expected lifespan of over 1 million miles. The gas engine and transmission may be designed for up to 500,000 miles.

These are the same components used in commercial fleet vehicles. The fleet owners expect long trouble free life from the vehicles.

So a used diesel MH my actually have a longer lifespan (miles traveled) than a gas MH.

-- Edited by The Bear II on Tuesday 16th of June 2015 02:58:25 PM

Tashinhurst · RV-Dreams Community Member

My wife (still teaching) made me get a job driving a school bus when I retired from teaching. It has been a good experience. Taking it slow, making wider turns, and using the mirrors.

bjoyce · RV-Dreams Family Member

We had a gas motorhome that we would have kept except we had the money to get a DP and did. That was 11 years ago. Friends with the same gas motorhome, a 2002 Dolphin, used their's for many years of fulltiming, I think about 6, before they decided to get a DP. Their newer DP, a Tiffen Phaeton, has been more problem prone than their old gas motorhome, so I know they have mixed feelings about it.
My mother-in-law moved from a 40' tag axle DP, a 2001 Monaco Dynasty, to a new 33' gas motorhome, a 2014 Winnebago Sightseer, once she was widowed. The Ford engine pulls the hills better than the Cummins ISC in the Monaco, pulling a Chevy Malibu, due to the combination weighing a lot less. She has much less storage, less carrying capacity, but still has carrying capacity left. The Monaco handled cold weather better, took curvy roads better (which can be fixed, since we spent money to improve our gas motorhome suspension) and the quality of the Winnebago is not nearly as high as what Monoco put in their high end motorhomes in 2000/2001. But, she is happy with it and glad she traded.

Greydennyhawk · RV-Dreams Community Member

I like the V 10 as it seems strong enough to tow the bass boat through the finger lake hills in NY state. Also the fact that my Ford dealer can service everything for me, as its really an E 450,
When it's older, my buddy Joe can dig under the doghouse for repairs, and the class C greyhawk 31ss has airbags and a crumple zone if the big accident does occur.
Decent mpg 8-9 @ 63 mph, I do not think that the stinky diesel gets much better.

Someday · RV-Dreams Family Member

I like BJoyce write up giving both sides of Gas versus DP. As almost always when we read about DP versus Gas for FTing the majority vote for a DP. Here's our thoughts, she(me) happy with the gasser, he wants the DP = we bought a new 2003 gas 36ft workhorse with two deep slides because of the following:

a) Floorplan (except bathroom always my bugbear on how tight) Love it still to this day especially closets and prep room in kitchen
b) Told hubby back then I could buy an awful lot of gas for the extra $100K to go DP he liked
c) Cost of repairs/renewals/maintenance of the DP seems a lot higher than the Gas when talking to many
d) Not going FT at point of purchase but extended timing that has got longer and longer in recent years, just seemed less depreciation to lose on

Today and spending on average about 4+ months a year driving in her (not sitting long anywhere) now and within 16 months of going FT still intend to stick with the gas for the first 2 years of FTing to see how we feel before losing a ton of money on something that "might" not live up to our expectations, although we truly believe it will.

Hubby so much wants a DP for pulling up hills a little sooner (our gas gets there a few minutes behind but nonetheless still gets there and we travel lots in the Rocky Mountain areas). Hubby and I do like the pass through spacious storage compartments generally on a DP versus a gas, but we prefer the amount in our gas mh over the 5er we initially had in the late 90's. Hubby keeps telling me that diesel is now cheaper than gas, but I have a long memory and recall tons of friends back in the late 80's/early 90's changing their autos to diesel from gas when it was cheaper and as soon as many had changed over, the price of diesel shot back up again so a false economy back then experienced by many we found. Almost all our friends ended up changing back to petrol/gasoline.

Fair comment that a DP engine will generally last a lot longer than a gas, (we needed a new engine 2 years ago when a failed clip holding a rod caused punctures throughout ours = unfortunate that a $2 clip did that but ......), but I'm glad at the time we had to pay for a gas not a DP replacement engine. Just generally the cost of maintenance/repairs etc seem a lot lot higher than our gas.

The newer Entegra or "maybe" Tiffin hubby has heart set on today, concerns me with all these extra things that can go wrong/fail on them, purdy as they are. He can't even switch on a computer so heaven knows how he'll manage the iPad set up for all the controls - the addition of DEF = another thing to remember, the reports on how many folks Aquahot heating has had problems, and several other things and folks that spend countless days, weeks and months sometimes trying to get repairs done on their new DP's. We just are not hands on into the tech or mechanical side of things, and knowing this, whilst I'd love to make his dream come true of having a DP, I'm wondering how quick it might deplete our funds in the big scheme of things. Best advise we ever had was from BarbOK on putting 10% away and topping it up for maintenance, no matter which type of rig you decide on it's a great idea and saved our bacon when required for engine, solar system, tires and more.

One comment hubby has made recently about "if" we had a DP and makes valid sense to me = we are considering finally getting a toad and I really want something on the same interior cargo size as our escape (not towable 4 down) for his fishing cart/rods/lure boxes etc but when we consider anything like that it's taking us too close to the limit on what you can tow with a gas and I'd rather be substantially below the limits not near the upper ends of them pushing the envelope so to speak. So for now, looks like we might continue with just our push bikes and walking shoes even when initially going FT.

For sure the newer gas engines seem to have come a long long way recently and even on floorpans and finishes with some but I'm also conscious of the write ups from GonewithTheWynns.com on comparing their two shorter DP's to their 2016 model gasser they have right now, and it's appearing they got considerably better mileage with their DP's than this current gasser. Looking forward to their report after their first full year with it for comparisons.

Good luck with your choice, for us in this household it's still up in the air on what's the best option, and looks like it could be for at least a couple years or more yet (LOL).

SD.

-- Edited by Someday on Thursday 20th of August 2015 12:23:03 AM

Barbaraok · RV-Dreams Family Member

A few things to think about when considering fulltime. At 36' you are at the realistic limits of a gasser. Do you have a w/d? For fulltiming, they are really so nice to have. And if you want to go up to a 38-40 feet, then you are looking at a DP.

But why are you comparing cost of a new gasser with a new DP? There are so many gently used DPs that are 4-5 years old that will be comparable with any new gasser that you look at and the original owners will already have taken care of the of the 'new' coach fixes that are needed during that first year.

Also think about how nice it would be to have an exhaust brake to walk down those passes in the Rockies. No worrying about overheating the brakes, just flip it down and before long you are at the bottom of the pass without any 'white knuckle' worries. Yes, I know that it can be done with a gasser, down shifting, etc., but it is so much easier with that exhaust brake.

And I think you will find that most DPs from 2000 on have very nice sized bathrooms - I love our very large shower. Also remember, that in addition to being able to pull a larger/heavier trailer (lots of DPs have 10K hitches, or more) you also have more cargo carrying capacity with most DPs. A good rule of thumb is to figure about 1500# for each person when fulltiming. You just carry more stuff because you don't back to some other place for holidays, different seasons, etc. Our rig had ~5200# CCC when we got her, we now travel with about 1000 lbs still available.

Barb

Gpndavid · RV-Dreams Family Member

We faced the same decision last year and went with a 2007 DP over a new gasser. We felt that even at 7 years old the used DP at that price point provided higher quality and better features than we could get in a gasser. With so many used DPs out there with very light use, you can find one that is like new. We went through the Tiffin factory last month and I did not see a significant difference functionally in the new ones over our 2007. The biggest difference is the newer electronics and wiring architecture. We replaced all the original TVs and rewired with HDMI cables. We also replaced the Norcold with a residential refrigerator and put a new set of tires on it. Very happy with our decision.

Tashinhurst · RV-Dreams Community Member

Thanks to all of the replies. We are definitely leaning the DP way. Does anyone have an opinion on whether the a new "lower end" DP is worth the buy? We've seen some new DP in the $160k price range. Not sure how they might stack up to a 7-8 year old "better" quality unit.

bjoyce · RV-Dreams Family Member

On a newer lower end DP, check the engine size first. Cummins ISB and Mercedes diesel engines are fairly small and do not take grades much better than a Ford gas engine. I would not want less than an 8.9 liter engine (Cummins ISL, Cat C9) for a 40' DP. A 7 to 8 year old better quality unit will most likely be better insulated, have a larger engine, and use better slide and leveling jack parts.

Barbaraok · RV-Dreams Family Member

You'll get more bang for your buck with an older gently used higher end DP than a new 'entry' level DP. As Bill said, make sure you have enough engine for the size of the DP. And the fit & finish will be better on the older DPs - - and folks that buy them new ($300K-$500K) tend to take good care of them. Double pane glass, better insulation, better quality wiring, side radiators, larger battery bays, and so forth. If I were looking now, I'd be looking at older Newmar Mountain Aires or Dutch Stars, or Foretravels, if I could find them.

Barb

BiggarView · RV-Dreams Family Member

Just my perspective, and without any real world knowledge other than anecdotally... Good arguments have been made for the DP and I can't contest any of them but......

To start with, IMHO it's fairly hard to compare apples to oranges in the gas vs diesel debate when it comes to motorhomes because, DPs can accomodate some floor plan arrangements that gas simply cannot. Both have limitations and their own unique issues. One of the biggest differences between the two is basement storage (if that is important to you), DPs can have a significant edge here owing to no drive shaft to contend with in the areas normally devoted to basement storage. DPs are typically quieter while driving owing to the engine being at the other end of the coach rather than right under your feet for a gasser, If you plan to travel a lot this might be an important consideration. If you can find a gasser and a diesel with identical floor plans (again fairly rare, but not impossible) you will be paying several 10's of thousands more for the diesel in a new vs new equation. If you go with a older DP you can reap the benefit of depreciation to help equalize the price to a degree, but now you have years of wear and tear to potentially contend with. Yes, new rigs can be maintenance monsters too. If the used DP is still a few 10's of thousands more than a similar newer gasser, I'd consider the idea (remember I said "consider") of buying the gasser and putting the difference of the higher DP price less the gasser price into a special maintence & fuel fund. The rationale is, I'd probably have higher maintenance costs and fuel costs associated with the harder working gas engine than the more moderately exercised diesel equivalent. In order to consider the gas option, several variables would have to be evaluated... miles driven, locales driven, expected price of gas vs diesel fuel, cost of scheduled maintenance, years of expected service, your personal "need for speed' biggrin , towing requirements and a handful of other intangibles.

Once you have a dollar number sort of worked out for both alternatives, you can decide, rationally, whether coughing up the extra bones upfront is worth it or not for your personal financial comfort zone to get a DP (which generally is the higher of the two, even if looking at a used DP vs a newer gasser owing to better construction techniques for DPs and higher end builders concentrating in that market segment. You can buy a lot of gas and cover a lot of maintenance with a lower cost gasser if you bank the difference from the higher cost of the DP, but now you have contend with those issues... so it really boils down to what is really important to you. If you can find a used DP (again the older, the more you'll have to pay attention to the condition of the rig to determine if the mainentance on it will eat up your funds or not) for the same price as a newer gasser with the same or very similar floorplan I'd lean toward the DP for all the well made arguments of others on this thread.

I guess my point is, the decision is not cut and dried, nor can it be made without weighing many factors... all of which are unique to your RVing situation. Don't you just love "homework"? biggrin confuse

Full disclosure, we don't have a rig yet and are strongly leaning to a fiver, but a DP is not out of the question for us and we are still considering a certain 42' model though it will indeed be about 6 years old (hopefully there'll be a gently used one available) if that is the route we take for our FT adventure.

FWIW, Brian

kb0zke · RV-Dreams Family Member

Some friends of ours bought a new popular brand DP when they started their FT adventure. Less than a year later the traded it even-up on a 10-year-old high end coach. Reason? They could see that their new coach wouldn't stand up to FT use, whereas a high end coach would.

BTW, the most frequent bit of advice we got when we were researching was to buy used, even if we could have afforded something new (we couldn't and still can't). Very few people get the right coach the first time they buy, and when you factor in depreciation that first coach can be quite expensive per mile.

mpierce · RV-Dreams Family Member

We went with an older, high end, Bluebird Wanderlodge. For the money you are thinking about, you can get into the 2000 model year range, give or take a little.

We went with a 1990 for less than 1/2 of what you are thinking about. The quality is fantastic! Solid wood cabinets. STEEL sides, frame, roof! Real tile floors in kitchen and bath.

With full fuel, 300 gal, water, 140 gal, food, clothes, etc, we are still 3500# UNDER Gross, and it is rated to tow 10,000# too!

Having owned regular RV's for years, it is simply amazing how much higher quality this is than any newer regular RV. At least check out the high end older MH's.

-- Edited by mpierce on Wednesday 16th of September 2015 05:06:45 AM

ticat900 · RV-Dreams Family Member

Barbaraok wrote:
36' or longer, go with the DP. Going to do 10K miles or more a year, go with the DP. Going to go over the Rockies 2-4 times a year, go with the DP. Shorter unit, mainly in the midwest-east, less than 7K miles a year, go with the gasser.

Barb

agreed except stick with as new as u can afford because of the electronics etc etc. also do not buy a DP with less than a 400ISL hp engine

a 40ft dp with a 360HP 6.7 sucks power wise compared to a 400 ISL be warned

legrandnormand · RV-Dreams Family Member

Tashinhurst wrote:
Thanks to all of the replies. We are definitely leaning the DP way. Does anyone have an opinion on whether the a new "lower end" DP is worth the buy? We've seen some new DP in the $160k price range. Not sure how they might stack up to a 7-8 year old "better" quality unit.

If you shop around you'll find great deals on 3-5 year old used DP and you won't pay that enormous depreciation.

Concerning the engine size or HP, try to stick with a 10 to 1 ratio ! For a 35 footer, you'll need a minimum of 350 HP, and that mh will probably weight ± 35,000 lbs, including the toad; a 400 HP would be required for some 40 footers and a 450-600 HP would be required for most 45 footers.

-- Edited by legrandnormand on Thursday 15th of October 2015 04:46:55 PM

-- Edited by legrandnormand on Thursday 15th of October 2015 04:47:38 PM

ticat900 · RV-Dreams Family Member

Greydennyhawk wrote:
I like the V 10 as it seems strong enough to tow the bass boat through the finger lake hills in NY state. Also the fact that my Ford dealer can service everything for me, as its really an E 450,
When it's older, my buddy Joe can dig under the doghouse for repairs, and the class C greyhawk 31ss has airbags and a crumple zone if the big accident does occur.
Decent mpg 8-9 @ 63 mph, I do not think that the stinky diesel gets much better.

your not even close to comparing apples to apples as there talking class A and your Class C? also to note all diesels after 2007 are clean burn and you can not smell the diesel

Iam surprized at your 9MPG at 63. I used a 24ft bigfoot for 2 weeks awhile back and got 7MPG as what most forum reports also concure.Everyone says 6.5-7.5

Barbaraok · RV-Dreams Family Member

Sometimes the 'new' electronics can be a real PITA. Ours is a 2002 model and does everything we need it to do, never have a 'diesel' smell, and keeps on going with over 140K miles on her.

ticat900 · RV-Dreams Family Member

all diesels stink out the exhaust built before the 2007-2008 era- ALL. After that they have a special exhaust system installed that eliminates the black soot and stink.That is why cat got out of the market as they did not want the expense of installing such on motorhomes
Having a LED/LCD/Plazma HD TV verses a old picture tube is like having a horse and buggie verses a motor vehicle for transportation
2002 diesel motor homes are all electronic as far as the trans controls and motor controlls are concerned

-- Edited by ticat900 on Monday 19th of October 2015 09:10:11 PM

Gpndavid · RV-Dreams Family Member

Went to a large RV show last weekend...still happy with our 2007 Allegro Bus. Didn't see anything we thought was significantly better. Also, on our last tank, we averaged 7.5 mpg towing a Jeep and running the generator for half that trip to stay cool. We have the 400 hp ISL and I set the cruise on 65. Living the dream.

ticat900 · RV-Dreams Family Member

Gpndavid wrote:
Went to a large RV show last weekend...still happy with our 2007 Allegro Bus. Didn't see anything we thought was significantly better. Also, on our last tank, we averaged 7.5 mpg towing a Jeep and running the generator for half that trip to stay cool. We have the 400 hp ISL and I set the cruise on 65. Living the dream.

my lord man!! Are you Blind? go look at a new Allegro bus or a comparable Newmar Dutchstar or A Entegra.(to name a few) These new units are heads and shoulder above your 07 Tiffin Allego bus

-- Edited by ticat900 on Monday 19th of October 2015 09:15:13 PM

Gpndavid · RV-Dreams Family Member

Yes, they are about $300K above my 2007. I don't see it. Cherry wood is cherry wood, tile is tile, Fleetwood is Fleetwood, on and on. We like some of the new layouts, creative storage ideas, and the previously mentioned electronics. The rear steer tag axle is cool as well. Nice coaches, but not "here take mine and a healthy check" nice.

ticat900 · RV-Dreams Family Member

Gpndavid wrote:
Yes, they are about $300K above my 2007. I don't see it. Cherry wood is cherry wood, tile is tile, Fleetwood is Fleetwood, on and on. We like some of the new layouts, creative storage ideas, and the previously mentioned electronics. The rear steer tag axle is cool as well. Nice coaches, but not "here take mine and a healthy check" nice.

quote: Didn't see anything we thought was significantly better

The reason I commented was because of what you said. (EG) the Construction quality, component quality, material quality etc of a 2016 AB compared to your 07 is like two different worlds

so yes in fact they are much more than significantly better BUT agreed who wants to fork over their old very good unit and around 250K++. I agree in that point

I have a 08 AB and have fixed all the wrongs and screw ups plus did many enhancements over factory but its not anywhere near a 2016 unit I hate to say

NOW if you said u owned a 2009 Beaver patriot thunder I would have agreed as that model is as good or better than what we see today

-- Edited by ticat900 on Tuesday 20th of October 2015 02:59:55 PM