The price of high quality... - RV-Dreams Community Forum

Vagabond · RV-Dreams Family Member

The price of high quality...

Bill and Linda · RV-Dreams Family Member

Kyle:

While I agree with everything you said from frames to fit-and-finish – they both have the same items that break the most as you know: Hot water heater, range, AC units, fridge, etc. as all these items come from just two or three sources. (Generalization here everyone)

Based on the things you said, I’d pick the Jayco simply due to live-ability – again, based on your comments as to the short comings of both and how what will impact your life every day - like no second AC unit and a sky light in the bedroom - and the length of time you plan to keep the rig.

BTW, the Lippert frame won’t break unless you overload it or treat it poorly - just don't put Big Foot Levelers on it. I wouldn’t overstress (pardon that pun) on that one. No, not as good a frame as others, but it will serve your purpose. I’d be more concerned about replacing the OEM tires with something much better before I got too concerned about the frame. JMO based on your post.

Bill

Rob_Fla · RV-Dreams Family Member

Jayco builds a good product at their price point.
I would not stress over the Lippert Frame, most Towable RV use them (Not All) but they build to the customers specs.
Even Mobile Suites uses a Lippert Frame built to their specs.

We have owned two Jayco 5th Wheel, both were good products that were mostly trouble free and a good value for the dollar.
Jayco also has a great 2 year warranty (one of the best at their price point) and good customer service.

Remember Jayco is one the last family owned RV company's out there.

kb0zke · RV-Dreams Family Member

We have a couple working with us here who have been full-timing for 10 years now. They currently have a Jayco 5'er and are not happy with the quality.

Recently we started kicking around the idea of switching from our DP to a TT and asked about high quality brands. Jayco was not mentioned, but Arctic Fox was.

Sushidog · RV-Dreams Family Member

Sure Jayco is not the same quality as the Arctic Fox. Everyone knows this, but it is 1/3rd less money too. Since it comes with a 2 year warranty and you only need it for a year do you really need (and want to pay for) quality that you will never use. In fact I would look for a slightly used one, since I'm only keeping it for a short period of time, saving even more on depreciation. The $10-15k you will save up front by choosing the Jayco will buy a lot of repairs (if needed) too if you decide on a used one. The only thing that concerns me with the Jayco brand is their low CCC. I've never seen one with sufficient CCC for FT use (about 3,000 lbs. for a couple), though the 318 RETS comes close at 2,700 lbs. I also like the floorplan of this model, though the kitchen is small, lacking counter space and cabinets.

I'm leaning toward something like this, myself: www.rvoutletmall.com/rv/2014-Sprinter-331RLS-10178

Chip

bjoyce · RV-Dreams Family Member

Sounds like we are talking about the difference between average quality and medium quality, not high quality. Just saying.

But I will warn you that a "one year journey" can lead to the it being extended to more years. Full-timing can be addictive.

Sushidog · RV-Dreams Family Member

The problem of limited CCC in FT capable TTs is not unique to Arctic Fox. Outdoor MFG who also makes some quality mid-grade 4 season TTs also comes up short on CCC, well under 2,500lbs on all of their otherwise suitable Windriver and Blackstone lines.

www.outdoorsrvmfg.com/

Even the high quality FT TTs like the Grand Design, while beautiful trailers, still only have around 2,500lbs CCC. Why build a TT for the FT market with such a low carrying capacity? For solo FT RVers possibly?

www.granddesignrv.com/reflection-TT-specs.php

Many folks are installing 500+lb solar/battery systems to make their trailers more boondocking friendly, which lowers the useful carrying capacity even more when the weight of all other "options" are added in.

Sure you can have something built to your specs with more CCC, like a $100K+ Spacecraft, but I think this is entirely out of the range of almost everyone considering a TT, with the possible exception of some of the Airstream folk (which still come up short in this area).

The only TTs with reasonable CCCs that I've seen are some toy haulers, and they get this way with minimalist, Spartan interior and few if any slides. If CCC is an issue for you, like it is me, I'd suggest looking at the Work and Play line from (gasp) Forest River. Here's an example of one of their new models: www.forestriverinc.com/product-details.aspx

It's saving grace is a one piece aluminum roof which should prove very durable over time, two slides, an Onan generator rack/30 gal. fuel station and a virtually blank space in the cargo bay which can be repurposed however the buyer sees fit.

Chip

Vagabond · RV-Dreams Family Member

Thanks for the opinions, folks.
Chip, you had some good points about price. The Arctic Fox 32a is about $42-44,000. The Jayco is $30-35,000. To me, that's an enormous difference. Taking that line of thought a little further, that would pay to replace the engine, or the Allison in our truck, if one or both of them starting barfing parts out on the pavement. The aving could also go into our "House fund", in case this is only a one year gig. I'm not saying that we will sell whatever we get in a year, just that it could happen. I've made some foolish financial decisions in my youth, and I really like the idea of not tapping a penny out of the proceeds of selling our house. Exit strategy, if you will.
I am still not seeing the 3000 lbs of stuff, for two people. One of the reasons for selling the house, and giving this a shot, is getting rid of all the useless junk we have accumulated. Astronomy gear, fishing poles, a generator, and a small motorcycle (250 lbs), will be about it. A few pots and pans, cameras, laptops, minimal clothing, a 35lb inverter welder, etc. Most of that can ride in the truck. Our 2500 Chevy is an extended cab, and I plan to remove the back seats, and install a wood floor and a cargo net behind us, for lightweight stuff in totes. Minimal stuff, minimal stress. Oh, and two mountain bikes in the bed with the motorcycle.
As for the addictive nature of this, I hope that turns out to be true for us. If that winds up being the case, I'll certainly look at a new TV and 5th wheel.
Chip again, funny you mention the Work and Play. I built a toyhauler out of a 28' V-Nose cargo trailer, and we currently use that for camping. Sink, shower, porty-potty, AC, and 50 amp panel. It works great, but it is all electric, and has no slides. It doesn't seem very inviting for a full year. (That's Wifey's logic, not mine. My logic is "It's paid off, let's roll :))
We'll keep snooping around, and see what happens. I'm glad we planned to do this in a year and a half, not 6 months. Hopefully the additional time will allow a more educated decision!
Regards, Kyle

Sushidog · RV-Dreams Family Member

I understand the hesitance to embrace the 3,000 lb figure quoted to me by several FT RVers, as I did until I started to tally the items up.

Remember you will be carrying all your worldly possessions with you, which for most folks, even after pruning your possessions to a tiny fraction of what you own now will still be quite heavy. I've found that often the actual CCC of units on the dealer's lot is usually a couple hundred lbs lower than advertised because of many "options" like a spare tire, ac, awning, battery, etc. add hidden weight and are not really optional. I recommend that you look at the actual CCC on the weight sticker before you pull the trigger.

Let's look at some of the things that typically eat up an RVs CCC. First there's water. Let's say you decide on the Jayco you are looking at with an 82 gallon fresh water capacity (8.33 x 82 = 683lbs of it if you want to boondock or camp without hookups occasionally and need to travel with your fresh tank full (your gray and black will be empty unless you are going to dump, then your fresh tank will more than likely be empty or at least very low), next add 60 lbs of propane (plus the weight of the tanks, if not included), and 50-75 lbs of batteries - maybe a couple hundred lbs. if you like to boondock. Next, add the contents of your freezer/fridge (easily 50-60 lbs), a full ice chest, pantry - another 50-100+lbs (I always carry a 50lb bag of rice, plus canned goods, drinking water, potatos, etc are heavy), clothes (4 seasons worth), shoes, linens, foam topper for bed, pillows, window coverings/decorations, kitchen appliances (toaster ovens, blender, mixer, rice pot, coffee pot, slow cooker, dishwasher, etc.) kitchen utensils, pots and pans, misc. household items like lamps, chairs, washer/drier, etc., toiletries, make-up, medical supplies, cleaning supplies (vacuum, mop and broom) and chemicals, folding chairs, recliners, floor/door mats, tarps, rope and chains, screen rooms/tentage, toys (bikes, hobby and sporting equipt., fishing gear, hunting gear, guns and ammo, bicycles, motorcycles, ATVs, helmets and riding gear), TV/DVD/satellite equipt., stereo/music gear, game systems/computers, printers, family heirlooms/treasures, camera gear, safe, important papers, certificates, records military decorations, awards, etc, locks and security system, portable heaters, generator/spare fuel (a Honda EU3,000 is 150lbs + another 30lbs for can of gas), solar panels (controller, inverter, cabling, battery monitor, fuse blocks, breaker box and extra heavy batteries - I'm planning on an extensive solar setup that will allow me complete grid independence - of course that will weigh about 1,000lbs, so let's just say 500 lbs for an average, medium sized system), sewage hoses, fittings and sewer hose holder (a legal requirement in some states), fresh water hoses and fittings, electrical cords, surge protector, leveling gear, water filters, macerator pump, portable dump tanks, water bladder, patio/camping lights, lanterns, flashlights, tables, BBQ grill/fuel, tools (very heavy), spare parts, coolant, oil and filters (fuel, air and oil for) truck, air compressor, ladder, topper or camper for truck, pet supplies, cages, etc.

I'm sure given a little thought much more could be added. This is my list just to get you thinking about you unique needs. Remember you don't want to put too much in your truck bed, because in addition to your motorcycle (I'll be carrying two), fuel, generator, tools, cover, etc. you must also add your tongue wt, hitch wt, passenger wt, fuel wt and misc cargo.. If you only have a 3/4 ton or a SRW truck like me it's easy to overload it if not careful.

And then there's the souvenirs you will accumulate over your travels, "Lucy put those big rocks back! Aw, Ricky!" ;)

Chip

-- Edited by Sushidog on Sunday 15th of February 2015 06:40:37 PM

kb0zke · RV-Dreams Family Member

Chip, you nailed it! We're talking about switching from our DP to a TT, and cargo capacity is a HUGE problem. Finding cargo capacity in a used high-quality four-season-capable TT is turning into an exercise in futility.

Vagabond · RV-Dreams Family Member

Guess I need to make a list, and start weighing things! I did weigh our truck at the local truckstop recently, so I at least have the numbers I need there.
It's remarkable to me, how much RV's weigh. Our truck was the towing king of gassers, in 2002. 8.1 (496ci), Allison, 4.10 rear end, etc. It won't safely tow anything but the smaller 5'ers produced today. Even if the GVWR and GCWR is ok, the pin weights they are rolling out of the factory now are out of our range very quickly. The leap in towing performance since 2002, is amazing. The price tag to upgrade is staggering. The advice often given here, to buy the rv first, and the tow vehicle second, is solid. I am in the position of having a paid off low mileage truck, that is limited in what it can tow. The option to buy a $60,000 diesel, just isn't there.
I agree on the cargo capacity. One very nice looking unit we looked at, was the Open range RT320RES. We liked the floorplan, and had it near the top of our list, until I looked for the storage compartment door... There are two tiny storage areas, one big enough for hoses, and another that might hold a couple of those under the bed totes. Amazing, and a bit of a bummer. That one got checked off the list.
Our local Northwood dealer is a pretty cool guy. He's out to lunch on his pricing, but he's upfront, and speaks his mind honestly. He told us the "Glitz" of modern RV's was eating the storage right out of them. 10000 GVRW is a big tipping point, not only for tow vehicles, but apparently for licensing requirements, in some states. Everybody wants lightweight, and most people want their rv to look like home. Come on, a fake brick chimney, with an electric fireplace?? LOL. I like the "look", sure, but I'd rather kick it out on the curb, and gain 300lbs of CC. Same with the kitchen islands. Sure, it looks like home, but it's eating 10 square feet of floor space, and adding weight.
Frustrating and fun, at the same time. That's how I sum up our RV shopping so far. Good to know we aren't alone!
Regards, Kyle

-- Edited by Vagabond on Sunday 15th of February 2015 08:37:39 PM

Terry and Jo · RV-Dreams Family Member

Kyle,

With respect to the possibility of needing to upgrade trucks, don't rule out the possibility of buying a good one on the used market. When we were researching for our RV, I considered a Ford F450 to be the smallest for the size of trailer we wanted. (This was back in 2008-2009.) In Oklahoma, where we lived at the time, any used F450's would likely have come off of the "oil patch," and thus, be extremely well used. That made me think that a new F450 was my best option, but I was also hesitant to spend $65,000 to $70,000 on a truck. We had decided to downsize on our choice of trailer so we could purchase a good used F350, which were generally available at our favorite dealership.

When I went to research used F350's then, the dealership had none at all on their website. I expanded my search criteria and up popped a 1 year old F450 with only 46,000 miles on it. It met all out needs and was priced at only $36,000. Of course, we got it for less and with the acquisition, we went back to looking at the Mobile Suites trailers again, which is what we ended up with.

Point is, check around at used. If you can find one for half price as we did, you could have a real bargain for your needs, and some leeway should you decide to keep RV'ing and want to upsize on a trailer.

Terry

BiggarView · RV-Dreams Family Member

Vagabond wrote:
....The option to buy a $60,000 diesel, just isn't there....

I don't know where your go/no go option is limited to... but there are several 2014 brand new, fully equipped Chev 3500HDs(last time I drove by there a week ago) on a Chevy dealer lot near us here in Chicagoland for well under 60K and and likely negotiable down to near 42K since they have been on the lot for quite some time. Last time I actually popped in, when I suggested 45K, the rep did not flinch. Just sayin' you don't need to spend 60K for that "new truck" smell. They are out there.

FWIW, Brian

Vagabond · RV-Dreams Family Member

Thanks, Terry and Brian. Those are some amazing deals. Who knows, maybe we will stumble into one like that! Another year of saving every penny from our jobs, and selling our stuff, will make the decision for us, in the end. If the money is there, I'd love to have a diesel. If not, I'll invest in ear plugs, so I don't have to listen to a big block wailing at 4k RPM all across the country :)
Thanks, Kyle

jlb27537 · RV-Dreams Family Member

I'll second the Work and Play. While they do not have the glitz of some, the construction makes it a good option for those needing the carrying capacity. I see them in Colorado every summer when we are there with our OHV.

We fulltimed for almost 10 years. Yes the 1,000-1,500 lbs per person is right on. You may start out with 500lbs each, but trust me, if you have room, something will be in there. Be it shoes, a extra can of beans, a case of ammo.

Also, remember, a gas engine looses about 3.7% of its towing ability for each 1,000ft in elevation climb.

Jim

-- Edited by jlb27537 on Tuesday 17th of February 2015 10:22:28 AM