Surge protection. - RV-Dreams Community Forum

el Rojo and Pam · RV-Dreams Family Member

Surge protection.

igotjam · RV-Dreams Family Member

Can't answer your question but as far as portable goes.....I like portable. Our 5er came with a built in surge protector and we've had 2 of them give up. It was Surge Guard brand (8860 I think) and it was built in with the transfer switch. When they give up you have no 110 volt power. With the portable (which I have now) if it goes, you can just unplug it.

-- Edited by igotjam on Sunday 9th of February 2014 06:25:30 PM

TRAILERKING · RV-Dreams Family Member

Progressive Industries EMS does way more than just surge protection. Monitors voltage condition coming into the coach. Read up below or go right to
www.progressiveindustries.net/ems_hw50c.htm

You can get it as "Plug-in" or "Hardwired"

High/Low Voltage Protection:

Whenever AC power falls below 104 volts, or rises above 132 volts, the EMS automatically shuts down power to the RV. The EMS will monitor the power and once the AC power rises above 104 volts, or below the 132 volt level, the time delay indicator flashes for the preset time and then automatically restores power to the RV.

Time Delay for A/C Compressor:

If the AC power is interrupted, or the EMS detects a fault condition, the built-in time delay is activated. There are tow settings on the EMS: one is 136 seconds (02:16), and the other is 15 seconds. Consult your air conditioner manual to see if it has a time delay built in. If so, use the 15 second delay, if not; use the 136 second delay. The factory setting is 15 seconds.

5-Mode Surge Protection:

This feature provides full surge protection L-N, L-N, L-G, L-L and N-G. Total Joule rating is 3,580, 88,000A surge current. Response time of <1 nano second.

Surge Indicator:

In the event of a power surge, and the surge protector circuit is damaged within the EMS, L-N or L-G, the digital display error code will read E-10. This indicates the EMS needs to be serviced.

Reverse Polarity Protection:

If AC power is a reverse polarity condition, the EMS will not allow power to the RV and the error code will read E-1.

Open Neutral Protection:

If AC power has an open neutral condition, the display will not light, and the EMS will not allow power to the RV.

Open Ground Protection:

If AC power has an open ground condition, the EMS will read an error code of E-2 and power will not be allowed to the RV.

AC Frequency Protection:

If AC power frequency deviates +/- 9 hertz from 60 cycles per second, the EMS will shut down power. An error code of E-7 will be displayed when the frequency is high; and an error code will be displayed when frequency is low.

Accidental 240V Protection:

If 240 volts is detected when plugging into AC power, the EMS will NOT allow power to the RV. If this condition occurs while power is applied to the RV, the EMS shuts off power instantly. The display will read the voltage and E-3 for the error. (NEVER BYPASS THE EMS WHEN THIS OCCURS.)

Remote Display:

Continuously scrolls all of the AC power information, including voltage, current, frequency, error codes and previous errors. Each reading is displayed for two (2) seconds.

Previous Error Code:

This feature tells the user what the previous error was and why power was interrupted to the RV. To read a previous error code, put a "P" in front of the "E" code. This is only displayed if an actual error occurs. The error is deleted when power is disconnected from the EMS.

Bypass:

This switch is located on the remote panel, and allows the user to bypass the computer circuit in the EMS in the event of computer failure, thus allowing AC power into the RV. This does not disable the surge protection portion of the EMS; however, all other features are disabled.

Modular Design:

Replacement parts are designed for simple plug and play, making repairs extremely user friendly.

Microprocessor Controlled:

The computer is driven by a state-of-the-art microprocessor that is programmed with software to drive the entire EMS.

-- Edited by TRAILERKING on Sunday 9th of February 2014 06:37:46 PM

Terry and Jo · RV-Dreams Family Member

Red,

It looks like your Surge Guard unit also monitors low voltage as well as high voltage spikes. See below:

Automatically shuts off the power when any of the conditions below are present. Automatic reset on power restoration.
Mis-wired Pedestal
Power Surges
Low (<102V) and High (>132V) Voltage
Reverse Polarity
Dangerous Current on Ground Wire
Caution indicator light to indicate cause of power stoppage. 2 minute 16 second reset delay protects AC compressor
Weather resistant
3850 Joules

It also appears to work for mis-wired pedestals and reverse polarity, so it would likely have helped you in a case such as described in that other thread. Most people go with the hard-wired unit from Progressive Industries for various reasons. However,I would suggest going through the detailed specifications of you unit and compare it to the Progressive Industries model. We had an issue with an "open neutral" that created some power problems for us, and I'm not sure whether the Surge Guard would help on that matter. In fact, we had another power issue here at the mobile home park where we are located and between that and the open neutral, it might have contributed to issues with our washing machine.

I'll add another reason as a benefit for the Progressive Industries.

There was a story a year or two ago of a gentleman that had issues with his unit from Progressive Industries. He happened to be close to the company's headquarters and put in a call to them. The guy that answered helped him by driving out to his location and checking things out. It required a new unit as the old one was damaged, which disturbed the owner because his warranty was out. The company guy got him a new one and he didn't have to pay a thing because Progressive Industries had gone to putting lifetime warranties on their products. The company man explained that the were also retroactively applying the lifetime warranty to older units that had limited warranties.

Oh, one other minor detail...the company man was the company's president. Nothing like a man that knows how to treat his customers.

Terry

jrzygrl64 · RV-Dreams Family Member

Our Landmark comes with some type of surge protector in the unit, Bill and I will have to check more closely what it does and doesn't do when compared to the list of things above that one you are recommending. If it doesn't do all those things, would we want to add the Progressive, or possibly replace the current one?

This is why I love this forum - so many people to teach you all there is to learn!

Alie and Jims Carrilite · RV-Dreams Family Member

A for instance-
This morning as I read thru several forums, while having breakfast I notice the lamp on our table flickering. Its a regular 110 item. watched it for a moment and got up to look at the display on the EMS... E5 showing.. line 2 high voltage, more than 132 volts, and the EMS shuts down power to that leg- regulating it.
What this means to me is that the generator we're on is acting up again. So time to take the big hammer and go beat on it again!
We're on a 12k generator working as gate guards. This unit has 58000 hours on it but the engine runs perfect, the generator end has been rebuilt twice from my understanding and may need another rebuild soon.

Bill and Linda · RV-Dreams Family Member

The Surge Guard is a good unit. However, the Progressive Industries has a better rating as to the energy it can absorb from a true electrical spike (surge) such as a lightning hit. This is measured in joules. The Progressive Industries has a better rating in this area of measurement.

One important thing worth bringing up is “surge protection” vs. a true EMS. A “surge,” in simple terms, is a very quick rise or spike, like from a lighting strike, coming in the power line. A true EMS, such as the PI unit, protects from “surges or spikes” but also looks at voltage – high and low – proper connections, power line frequency and proper wiring, etc. BTW, they have videos as well on their web site that get down in the weeds about this important area of RVing.

If you have a Surge Guard brand EMS unit, IMO, your fine and it works well. But if you don’t and are purchasing now, I would strongly recommend the Progressive Industries unit. It just has better specs as indicated on previous threads; great support and a lifetime replacement warranty. PI will also answer the phone and your questions.

You can get the plug into your shore cord version of the PI or the in coach hardwired unit. Either does the job. For many operational reasons, including having a read out of “how the power is right now” in the coach, I really prefer the hardwired. As far as I am concerned it is part, a necessary part of the coach electrical system. Just like the breaker box. But I do recommend placing it in the power line feed before the generator change over switch to protect that switch if you have that switch. You may have that change over switch even if you don't have a generator. That's common. Again, just experience speaking here. "Ask me how I know this" to quote another.

On edit: PI makes these for 50 and 30 amps rigs. The 50 amp unit works perfectly when the rig is plugged into 30 amp or a 20/15 amp house socket. No worries.

-- Edited by Bill and Linda on Monday 10th of February 2014 08:03:27 AM

-- Edited by Bill and Linda on Monday 10th of February 2014 08:13:47 AM

Bill and Linda · RV-Dreams Family Member

((igotjam wrote:
Can't answer your question but as far as portable goes.....I like portable. Our 5er came with a built in surge protector and we've had 2 of them give up. It was Surge Guard brand (8860 I think) and it was built in with the transfer switch. When they give up you have no 110 volt power. With the portable (which I have now) if it goes, you can just unplug it.

-- Edited by igotjam on Sunday 9th of February 2014 06:25:30 PM

The hard wired Progressive Industries units have a bypass relay so that if they “give up” you can still get power. You can also choose to bypass the unit with a flip of a switch if power is out of specifications and you know what you are doing - that is manage the risks by turning things off that could be damaged by high or low voltage for example. Use these feature with caution.

When in bypass you still have "surge" or spike protection (I.e. lightening) but no protection from high or low voltage and other features.

Bill and Linda · RV-Dreams Family Member

I put this post in another thread but thought it might be of interest to those reading under this thread topic:

OK, a bit of “down in the weeds” information that might be of help to those choosing this power insurance policy called an EMS.

There is the option for a timer to wait about 15 seconds or a bit over 2 minutes to turn on the power to the rig AFTER the EMS determines the power is OK. The EMS determines the power is OK, or not, in the milliseconds. The delay timer option at 2+ minutes is to allow the air conditioners or heat pumps time to let everything in the compressor sort of settle down before a too quick restart. Some air conditioning units have this turn on delay built in so you could move the jumper in the EMS, which determines 15 seconds or 2 plus minutes, to the 15 second position. I wouldn’t. I’d keep it at the 2+ minutes. Here’s why:

If the power goes out from the grid or the EMS cut the power because of issues with the power grid, such as outside the campground, when the power comes back on there will be a lot of things turning back on simultaneously – like the whole campground or maybe large parts of a city. That puts a bunch of “hits” on the power line voltage as things start up, especially electric motors. Let everyone else take all those hits. Put the delay in the longer 2 min+ position, put up with the slight delay and allow enough time to make sure everything with the power is good and stable before the EMS turns your rig back on.

Just my way of doing it based on too many years of dealing with these kind of power issues.

el Rojo and Pam · RV-Dreams Family Member

Very good point Bill.

lindy · RV-Dreams Family Member

elRojo, we had the same unit but in 30AMP for our TT we had for 7 years with no issues. No with the MH we have the 50AMP unit but in the hard wired version. I wired it in myself in about 1/2 hour. Much prefer the hard wired unit less chance of someone wanting more then I need it. Plus it then allows me to use a Hughs Automormer at the parks pedestal.

Bill and Linda · RV-Dreams Family Member

I don’t care for “fan boy” recommendations of anything. There are many times equal options or those options change when specifications change. It depends on your needs or opinions.

I looked, again, into True EMS products and it appears the Surge Gauge product has finally, after 7 years, upgraded their product and it appears this, IMO, is an option in addition to the Progressive Industries product we’ve all discussed here. This is a new product – actually an extension on their older one.

When you include the read out price, which is an option, it is a bit more expensive, but nothing significant as compared to the the PI - HW50C product with a readout.

Also for your consideration and to compare:

http://www.trci.net/products/surge-guard-rv/hardwires-portables/50a-hardwire

Either way, I do recommend getting either the HW50C Progressive Industries Product or this one based on your evaluation. The PI has been bullet proof for us. This product might be as well. Don't know but wanted to make you aware.

2riker2go · RV-Dreams Family Member

jrzygrl64 wrote:
Our Landmark comes with some type of surge protector in the unit, Bill and I will have to check more closely what it does and doesn't do when compared to the list of things above that one you are recommending. If it doesn't do all those things, would we want to add the Progressive, or possibly replace the current one?

This is why I love this forum - so many people to teach you all there is to learn!

The surge guard installed in the Landmark is not the same as an EMS system. There have been comments on it in various threads on the Heartland forum. This is the one I could find... heartlandowners.org/showthread.php/43018-Q-s-about-2014-Savannah-with-RV-Surge-Guard-Protection-option

jrzygrl64 · RV-Dreams Family Member

2riker2go,

Thanks! I will check it out!

Kelly

Bill and Linda · RV-Dreams Family Member

To quote from the other forum as linked by 2rider2go:

“Re: Q's about 2014 Savannah with RV Surge Guard Protection option. Don't confuse a transfer switch [that] has a surge suppressor built into it with a full EMS. The EMS is the one that has all the bells and whistles and a remote display. Two very different items."

Absolutely correct; very important point.

There are also units offered in some rigs that refer to themselves as “EMS” but aren’t. At least aren’t in the full protection application we are discussing in this threat.

I’m referring to systems labeled EMS that will, for example, automatically switch the hot water heater to gas if you plug into 30amps instead of 50amps. Or if on 30 amps may disable the second air conditioner. This does not in any way protect your rig from the electrical issues that we have been discussing.

Be careful about what vendors call things. Things are “marketed” by a lot of names that are not properly defined in the industry.

Terry and Jo · RV-Dreams Family Member

Bill and Linda wrote:

Be careful about what vendors call things. Things are “marketed” by a lot of names that are not properly defined in the industry.

Once again, Bill is right on target. The same applies to many other industries, including some RV manufacturers that want to call their products "4-seasons."

With regards to any product, it is imperative to read into all the details of a product and VERIFY.

Terry

Jack Mayer · RV-Dreams Family Member

All the above is good info. Bearing all that in mind....

IF I was retrofitting an electrical protection system I would be putting on a hardwired Progressive Industries system with a remote display. They have a long track record, technically they cover all the requirements, and they have shown to be VERY accommodating to customers needs. To me, that is "money in the bank".

MarkS · RV-Dreams Family Member

Terry and Jo wrote:
Bill and Linda wrote:

Be careful about what vendors call things. Things are “marketed” by a lot of names that are not properly defined in the industry.

Once again, Bill is right on target. The same applies to many other industries, including some RV manufacturers that want to call their products "4-seasons."
With regards to any product, it is imperative to read into all the details of a product and VERIFY.
Terry

Terry, that means that the coach will last 4 seasons!

VanMar · RV-Dreams Family Member

Bill and Linda wrote:
I’m referring to systems labeled EMS that will, for example, automatically switch the hot water heater to gas if you plug into 30amps instead of 50amps. Or if on 30 amps may disable the second air conditioner. This does not in any way protect your rig from the electrical issues that we have been discussing.

Such is the case with ours. I thought it had EMS but it only has PMS....Power Management System. Will be adding a PI EMS.

Bill and Linda · RV-Dreams Family Member

VanMar wrote:
Bill and Linda wrote:
I’m referring to systems labeled EMS that will, for example, automatically switch the hot water heater to gas if you plug into 30amps instead of 50amps. Or if on 30 amps may disable the second air conditioner. This does not in any way protect your rig from the electrical issues that we have been discussing.
Such is the case with ours. I thought it had EMS but it only has PMS....Power Management System. Will be adding a PI EMS.

Glad you are making the addition. Good move, IMO. Hope all will just make sure they know what they really have in the rig and then make their decision based on what is best for them.