I have been (obsessively) reading the blogs, posts, etc. and getting so excited about the prospect of RV living! I am following advice: I just subscribed to Trailer Life magazine. We have been to a couple of dealerships and are going to the Hershey show next week for some seminars. BUT we have never even spent the night in an RV, and our house has been for sale for a month (listed with a realtor) with not one showing! I am ready to GO! but we are stuck here until the house sells. Even then, we will not likely have enough left over to pay cash for a rig. It is tempting to just buy a rig with financing and hope for the best. I coordinated the Dave Ramsey FPU class twice - did I learn nothing?! Advice appreciated. You all are terrific! 

Thanks, Terry! Here I goooooooo...!! (splat). We enjoy road trips, have camped in tents and rustic cabins, read the Huggins' book, bought the Idiot's guide to RVing, and read several other books. We have spoken with friends who full time, and I cruise Craigslist and rvtrader daily. So we are TRYING to do our homework. It all started with wanting to downsize, travel more to see family across the US, and be able to deploy for disaster response with our favorite organization easily. An RV seems to be the answer to most of our desires, but we will have to full time to be able to afford it. I am so eager that I am sure the salesmen at the show next week will smell it on me like sharks! Lol! Signed, Shark Bait in Maine.

fwiw dh had never been camping and never been in an rv when we took the plunge.
he couldn't be happier--he LOVES our tiny new home, as I do.

Thank you all! You made me laugh, think, and take a deep breath. I will "calmly" attend the Hershey show next week, knowing that I am there to LEARN, not BUY. Repeat: Learn, not buy. Learn, not buy. Learn, not buy..."GASP! OH, honey, look at THAT one!!!"

Lucky Mike, we will most certainly be buying used but have no idea what we're doing and RV mechanics/inspectors aren't exactly around every "cornah" in this part of the world. Very rural as you probably know. We do have friends who have owned RV's and imagine we'll get them to go along and take a look with us. Also, we are acquainted with a couple who have been full-timing for 20 years and are now coming off the road, likely selling their 1999 Holiday Rambler. Maybe to US....!

Also, the better educated and informed, the better you can wade through the BS some salesman is giving you. You'll know that the truck he's telling you will pull a mountain is a bunch of malarkey. Some of them will tell you anything to make a sale. Knowledge is power.

Terry I agree with absolutely everything you have said. I also I'm a firm believer in making an informed decision.

But the stats are the stats and what the stats say is the 86% of fulltimers chose wrong no matter how much research they made and how much they think they know.

So the question is why do 86% choose wrong. (BTW: I am in the 86%)

It is actually simple once you step back and analyze it. So the easiest way to show is to use myself as the equation.

For two years I researched everything that I could research to be as informed as I could be. I read thousands of post and every magazine book etc etc etc I could get my hands on.

Than checked out as many floorplans as I could and would go look at each real trailer until we found the "perfect trailer"

So why even though I had what I thought was all the information needed to make an informed decision I still became part of the 86%.

Now once I realized that I had fallen in the 86% it became very clear what I did wrong.

And why most fulltimers get it wrong.

It is called the expected utility hypothesis which in layman's terms is why rational people make decisions based not on potential future benefits but on irrelevant past efforts.

In other words you are making a decision on information not only that will not apply in the future but even worst because most fulltimers spend hours and hours reading other peoples stories they apply to there own lives other peoples experiences to make decisions on a future event (fulltiming).

Do you see how bad that combination can be? Especially when buying an RV?

See you can have all the information you need to things that are technical.

Truck Needed
What Tools To Carry
What Manufacturer Provides Best Service
Etc
etc
etc

But the biggest factor in the equation you do not have which is how does it actually feel to be full-timing and to be carrying everything you own and need in a 40x11 space.

And no matter how much you read and how much research you do, the reality is you will not know what you really wanted until you do.

So after reading the stats I wondered how many of the 14% that said they actually made the right choice really made the right choice after all those that said they approved they still on avg changed the first RV in the first 3 years. If they chose right than why change?

Well this one also has a name also it is called the sunk cost dilemma I will use the example given on most economic classes in college because indeed I think is a great way of explaining it. You spend $100 on a concert and on the day you find that it’s cold and rainy and you can not get a refund. You feel that if you don’t go you would’ve wasted the money and the time you spent in line to get that ticket and feel obligated to follow through even if you don’t want to. In other words you go to the concert even though you ended up miserable.

The sad part is according to studies not only will you go to the concert and have a horrible time but to make matters worst you will tell anybody who ask you how was it you will actually say it was great and you had a wonderful time because human nature will not let you feel like a fool in front of other people.

So knowing this how does this apply to people looking for information on fulltiming.

Easy anybody who spent 50-60-70 thousand dollars on an RV especially if they bought it new and does not have the funds to go change the RV at a serious financial lost will never admit they made a mistake. Not only that but just as the person that bought the concert ticket went to the concert hated it and than preached how much he loved it so will the fulltimer do the same thing.

My point.

We are all different some of us wayyyyy different as such what applies to me does not apply to other etc etc etc

And to try to make a good decision of future expectations based on irrelevant past information adding to it other peoples decisions and information of not realistic results makes it almost impossible to make the perfect decision.

I will give a real life example.

I met a retired couple this year just amazing people both in the 70's had been fulltiming for 5 years while exchanging road stories we discussed my story and how we where changing our trailer after one year because we chose wrong they shared the same story on there side now these folks have a solid bank account so they where willing to take the huge hit they did to change there RV which they bought new for another one new that had what they actually wanted after being on the road for a while.

Here comes the kicker. When they researched they based again the decision on irrelevant past information. Example Bed size what clothes they used the fact that the wife was tired of cooking etc etc etc

And overall they made pretty good decisions except one which ended being a huge huge one the one which he told me he would had never seen coming. The cooking.

See they never really cared that much about the kitchen and counter space because she had said she was ready to start eating at restaurant and would be just full of joy to be out of the kitchen for good so they made decisions based on all the other "important things" what ended up happening after months on the road she realized that baking was a huge huge part of her life that baking was kind of her therapy so after months on the road she was getting depressed and she had no idea why this was happening long story short a few doctor visits a few cakes and cookies later she now knew that she wanted the biggest kitchen possible in an a fithwheel.

How do you research for that? You do not, the only reason she got to that was because she had the experience which gave her the circumstances that now gave her the correct present information to make the correct informed decision.

So using a base depreciation of 25% on a New RV and the same on a used to keep it simple.

Used Floor Plan I think I like pay $15,000 sell or trade after a year or so at a lost of$3,750

New trailer with all the research I made to make sure I picked right. Paid $65k. But here I made a mistake and now I am stuck because I owe six years of payments and I can not sale because I am upside down on equity and I am looking at a loss of $16,250 which is more than the used cheap test floorplan.


So as so well you said " It isn't that I want to argue with you on how to choose, but I don't think it is advisable to encourage folks to buy when they may not have enough knowledge to make good choices for the lifestyle they wish to live."

The difference is you believe you can get that from reading in a forum and I do not.

I believe the only way to have the knowledge is once you are actually doing it till than what ever decision you make you truly are making an uninformed one.

In other words you have Schrodinger's cat.


Vic

-- Edited by ClassicRoadTrip on Saturday 7th of September 2013 12:50:02 AM

I'm not sure I agree with Vic on buying the cheapest thing one can find with a floor plan that one can live with.  When we started this journey, we had already done some camping in 26-foot travel trailers and fifth wheels.  They had good enough floor plans, but were definitely not conducive to full-timing.  When buying an RV, regardless of the type, pay close attention to the "foundation" of the units.  What makes up the foundation is the frame, axles, suspension, tires and wheels.  Failing to choose something with a good foundation may cause one to find themselves having to trade a ways down the road.

We spent 2 years researching both Class A's and fifth wheels before making our final choice.  We "waffled" back and forth up until we made the choice we did, based on what kind of lifestyle we wanted to live.  Now, if one is not planning on full-timing, being so careful may not be critical.  And, just because something "looks pretty" doesn't mean that they will be good overall.  If one reads my posting about having a water leak in our bathroom last weekend, one would recognize the value of having an RV with a water manifold that allows one to shut off specific items instead of the whole RV.

Terry

Perhaps your stats are correct, at least for the dynamics of the polls taken.  However, why advocate wasting money on the first ones when good research and listening to the lessons learned by others on forums and other sources will help avoid getting the wrong one?  I can certainly attest to the fact that we benefited greatly from the two years of research and paying attention to the comments of those that had purchased ahead of us.  Two years into living full time in ours, and we really don't see a need to go looking for another one.

How many of us have the "where-with-all" to be able to afford to keep trading?  It isn't that I want to argue with you on how to choose, but I don't think it is advisable to encourage folks to buy when they may not have enough knowledge to make good choices for the lifestyle they wish to live.

Terry

Lonney Wade wrote:

---

I agree with you Vic, but Terry has a very good point, we looked for 2 years and studied, listen to people, looked and looked till we found the one for us and the best price, it was brand new and we got $20.000 rebate off the main price because the 2011s were coming in and the 2010s had to go, we have had our 5th wheel for 3 years and are very happy with it.

Lonney 

---

 

 

Lonney after you read the my whole argument on the issue would love your feedback. I think my biggest point is going on vacation for weeks is not fulltiming there is ohh we left this at the house the next trip we can take it etc etc etc it is just not the same thing period. I think renting is great to see what floor plan you "think" you like and again I say "think" because at the end of the day it is not untill you have been on the road for a longtime when you kind of start looking at things with a different mind set that is when you say mmmm why did I bring a guitar when I do not play guitar lol I could had brought my other golf set etc etc

Dcrum..I think you hit the nail on the head when you said a combination of study and experience is the best we can do. I think some people are fortunate to get it right the first time. A little bit of "luck" could also enter into the equation. Some are also happier or more content in whatever they have. My mother was that way. She was very content in whatever situation. And, the biggie for us all...BUDGET. Most of the time we have to do without certain things and figure out the key items we must have and live with the rest. Operative phrase - "figure out the key items"....that's the hard part. Now, if we could just win the lottery......

I wish you well in your search and hope you "get it right the first time".

I left and came back to make sure I was not interpreted wrong.

Dcrum as you we pretty much are all kind of binded by the budget this is what makes it really hard when it comes to making decisions on what we think we want and need.

But there will never be enough research on the technical issues and these you can never ever skip as they may cause you death or injury.

If you decide on a towable I can not point enough how important it is to get all the technical things right in other words it is ok and to be expected to maybe make a mistake on a floor plan but making a mistake on a truck to pull your rig or making a mistake on buying a fithwheel with history of being unstable is not an option. These mistakes may not be fixable.

A few months back while going to the clubhouse I got stuck on the road because this young guy scissored his 44ft Toy Hauler and could not get it out after 5 minutes I parked the car and offered to get his rig out of the position he got into he was a bit embarrassed but he agreed. After getting it out and helping him park it we had a short talk he is an awesome guy but this kid had never driven a rig and on his first try he decided to buy huge heavy trailer makes you think how many people are out there driving these rigs with no experience and not enough research to be safe on the road.

I just realized that I want to be totally clear that not one person who reads my post think I am saying for people not to research the opposite when it comes to safety not enough research can be fatal.

Again bless you all and all stay safe.

Vic

Lets be careful to not go too far off onto a tangent from the original poster's original comments.  I didn't do a good job of explaining before, but RV Dreams is different than a lot of other forums are in the makeup of its participants.  With regards to other forums, those may be made up of more folks that are part-time RV'ers, and with them, multiple RV's might even be a benefit in leading to a full-time lifestyle, if that is their eventual one.

However, RV Dreams is more geared to those that plan on full-timing from the outset.  As such, additional research in the form of forums, websites, and talking to others about their discoveries is very beneficial to avoid the 3-time buying.  In our own case, we have owned 4 "campers" with which we simply took vacations of 1 or 2 weeks in duration.  In none of those cases were we looking to full-time, so I wouldn't count those as "lessons learned."  When researching for ours, our RV salesman suggested the possibility of ordering one with an inverter and extra batteries.  We did so and I am so glad we did.  When we chose to replace our RV refrigerator with a residential one, we were already equipped with an inverter and didn't have to add an aftermarket one.

With regard to the "86%", did the polls and surveys take into account that the full-timers surveyed chose with full-timing as the goal?  Or, did those polls and surveys simply ask full-timers if they had owned RV's before?  If they were the latter, then I could fall within the 86%.  However, because I researched with the intent of full-timing, I don't feel I am part of that group.

In a sense, I hate surveys and polls because the results of said "devices" seldom are reported with all the internal dynamics of the poll or survey revealed.  Most "readers" seldom know how the questions were asked.

Because RV Dreams is made up mostly of folks wanting to full-time, at least for this forum, I stand by my original comment in not suggesting to buy cheap.

Terry

I keep wanting to add to this topic, but then I end up writing a huge piece that doesn't get to the point. Research and be realistic, it is all you can do. But as Vic says, you can still find you made a mistake since reality is a hard teacher.

Welcome, Dcrum, to the wonderful world of what-if that is RVing. Most of us here have opinions, especially when it comes to spending someone else's money (grin).

Seriously, as you visit shows and dealerships you should be discussing two important areas: HOW will you travel and WHAT floor plans fit your needs. The HOW comes down to whether you will be moving fairly frequently or whether you will be in one spot for several months at a time. Also, get used to the fact that something will tow something else. If you go with a travel trailer or 5'er, for example, the truck you use to tow it will be your daily driver. If you go with a motor home you will tow a smaller vehicle (the toad or towed) that you will use for most of your driving. The WHAT can be done as easily in a $1,000,000 motor home as it can be in a $5,000 used travel trailer. There are only a certain number of ways the interior space can be arranged, so you will see the same plans showing up on many different brands. It won't take you long to figure out which ones will work for you and which ones won't. Then you can start looking at quality.

My suggestion is that the two of you figure out how you will be using your coach first. If you are in the "drive it and park it for a few months" group a towable is generally considered the better choice. If you are going to move to a new place every few days a motor home is generally the first choice. Do either of you have difficulty with steps? If so, you might want to avoid a 5'er UNLESS you find one with the bath on the lower level. How much stuff will you be taking with you? Just because you can find a place to put it doesn't mean that the coach has the weight capacity to take it. Look at the numbers.

How much work can you do yourselves when something breaks or quits? How difficult is the coach you are looking at to work on? Some diesel pushers have rear radiators that can make doing certain repairs more difficult than those that have side radiators. On the other hand, the side radiator often requires an additional hydraulic motor, so there is another possible trouble spot.

I know you are anxious to get going, but putting a bit of thought into what you are doing will save you money and headaches in the long run. We spent nearly three years doing our research before we bought our coach.

I'm one of those that has purchased several RV's. The first was a used 28' Class C, followed by a new 30' TT that I kept for 1 year before trading down to a 20' TT. I even picked up a vintage Shasta 14' camper along the way. The Class C was only used a few times for trips between MN and TN and a long weekend at the Bonnaroo Music Festival. I bought the 30' TT because it it had a very large slide and therefore had space inside for my significant other's wheel chair. Before he unexpectedly passed away I knew that I didn't need or want such a large trailer to be dragging around the country, and the dealership where I had purchased it made me a very good deal on the trade-in for the smaller TT. NONE of these have been full-time quality, and I knew that when buying them, but living in each of them has really helped me figure out just what things I want in my (hopefully) final home on wheels.

In my case the answer to the things I want is to rebuild a vintage 20' travel trailer with the floor plan I want. Along the way I've looked at literally thousands of RV's of all shapes and sizes, along with spending many hours looking at them online. Since I want a smaller TT I've also spent a lot of time looking at tiny houses and also boats. Boat builders really know how to make small space work, much better than even the expensive RV's, at least in my mind. Living in the Class C and the 2 admittedly cheap campers has really taught me what I do and don't want. And I'm not talking about fit and finish or build quality issues, but the utilization of space and the liveablility. (is that a word? lol)

I don't know that I would have been happy if I had purchased a new, expensive, full-time type unit as my first RV, since what I thought I wanted and needed has changed dramatically in just 3 or 4 years and continues to evolve even now as I live in the space and take notes on how it is used or not used.

Cheryl, I hear you loud and clear. It is SO expensive to rent an RV. I did see where it is cheaper per night if you keep it out two weeks and (strangely) return it to a different site than where you rented it.

Since my husband and I have never EVER spent the night in an RV, I could see where it might be useful to find out if we can stand the close quarters (at all!) even though it might not represent what we end up with. For example, if we can stand a small one, we will probably like a big one! I am looking forward to talking with folks and walking through rigs this week in Hershey to get more of a feel for sizes.

David, we anticipate mostly eating in, and doing both long distance trips and short distance-followed-by-long-stays kind of trips. We will have two cats with us, too, so not being in the coach with them (if we had a 5th wheel) does not appeal to me, as well as the temperature control thing. We want to be able to dry-camp here and there when we have long distances to cover, and have access to the coach while driving. We absolutely will not be driving two separate vehicles as some do (oops, I think Howard does this! sorry!) where the couple is split up so that the big truck is not the daily driver at the destination. So it looks like MH will work best for us.

Even when we sell our house, we will not be able to pay cash for a quality rig but will have a nice down payment and "repair fund". Financing can get tricky if the rig is over 10 years old, though I imagine that can vary according to brand.

So much to think about! Wish I was just sittin' by a campfire right now, gazing at the stars, and listening to the crickets....

Terry, I think your suggestion is a good one, and I plan to follow through with it once we are back from Hershey. We live in New England, so some fall camping will be do-able, and hopefully enjoyable!