RV Electrical Must Haves - RV-Dreams Community Forum

lindy · RV-Dreams Family Member

RV Electrical Must Haves

Terry and Jo · RV-Dreams Family Member

There will definitely be circumstances of low voltage in campgrounds. Any time one gets a bunch of folks powering everything up of an evening, it will lead to issues.

In the past, there have been a lot of references to the Progressive Industries systems. Some of theirs have been recommended by a number of folks here to protect against both high and low voltage. When we started researching this topic, it was recommended that we get the hard-wired 50-amp system with the remote display because we have a large fifth wheel with 50-amp. I really need to get one ordered for us because we've since modified our coach by removing the RV fridge and put in Samsung residential refrigerator. The first link below is to Progressive Industries' website homepage and the second is to the recommended 50-amp protection system. Their products aren't cheap, but neither are all the systems in our coaches.

Progressive Industries Website

EMS-HW50C

I don't recall exactly where it was I read it, although I'm sure it was on a forum, someone who had purchased one of their products was having a problem with their unit one day and decided to call the company to ask some questions. Even though it was after hours, someone answered the phone and ended up driving the 50 miles from the company location to help the customer. After finding that the unit was bad, they went and got another and replaced it without charge. The customer was told that they had just gone to giving a lifetime warranty on all the protection units and were retroactively covering all units that had been sold in the past.

Oh, and the person who did all the helping was the president of the company.

For your information, here is their warranty information on their website.

Progressive Industries Warranty

Terry

RVKevi · RV-Dreams Family Member

Terry, I don't know if you were referring to me, but here is my post about our wonderful experience with Progressive.

http://rv-dreams.activeboard.com/t50988780/thomas-fanelli-progressive-industries/

The unit was not at fault, in fact it probably saved our rig from a low voltage situation! But he changed out the motherboard anyway, just to be safe, I guess!

Lucky Mike · RV-Dreams Family Member

I dont know if it helps but some units with solar have a "share Load system" that when the voltage drops, the inverter makes up the difference or closes out circuits to balance the load.

either way low voltage is a No-No....it creates a heat issue on the circuitry and creates damage over the long run...some times in very short order.

normally you only run in to these problems in older or over crowded parks on A/C on days or cool days when Electric heaters come out of storage..

also always check the pedestal for scored or flash marks.....many campers have never understood the principal of shutting the pedestal off before plugging in or unplugging which when not done damages the outlet......and trust me on this one...the park is not just going to change out that outlet as general maintenance until they recieve a few complaints about it......always check your voltage immediately after plugging in....if you are plugging in to a 30 amp you can check from any outlet onboard.......if you are plugging into 50 amp you must check both legs which means you must find out which outlets are on which leg...

I have DIY plan to build a portable power test unit with simple hardware store available parts.....I posted it last year and will find it and repost for those that missed it....it cost around 60 to build it and is a great tool and a very quick lesson and reference in RV power and testing!!

this is a very good website to keep handy to learn meters , and servicing your rv!!

www.myrv.us/electric/Pg/tester_50amp.htm

-- Edited by Lucky Mike on Tuesday 6th of August 2013 07:52:51 AM

lindy · RV-Dreams Family Member

Only thing I see with the Progressive Ind. unit is that in the case of low voltage all it does is disconnect you from the power source, where as the autoformers will to a certain extent be able to boost voltage to prevent a low voltage situation. The Progressive units (IMO) are another form of surge protection. I'm looking to prevent a low voltage situation by boosting the voltage with a unit i.e. Franks, or Hughes units.

R12 · RV-Dreams Family Member

Due to family concerns we have to spend the summer in an older campground that only has 30 amp service. We have the PI EMS system hardwired into the camper and it will shut off the power coming into the camper when the voltage gets below around 105 volts in order to protect the electronics in the camper. This happened several times the first year we were here and so part way through last summer we bought the Hughes Autoformer. It has kept the power above 114 volts at all times and we've had no more low voltage concerns. For us this was definitely a good purchase. I did have a problem with the autoformer and had to send the unit to the mfg. for repair which was done quickly and under warranty.

D and M · RV-Dreams Family Member

Terry,

Our Mobile Suites have a Surge Protector w/ Voltage Protection & Remote Display. Is the PI system and/or Autoformer still needed?

Dave

Terry and Jo · RV-Dreams Family Member

RVKevi wrote:
Terry, I don't know if you were referring to me, but here is my post about our wonderful experience with Progressive.
http://rv-dreams.activeboard.com/t50988780/thomas-fanelli-progressive-industries/
The unit was not at fault, in fact it probably saved our rig from a low voltage situation! But he changed out the motherboard anyway, just to be safe, I guess!

Kev and Vi,

Yep. I think your story was the one I remembered. With advancing age and increased "relapses" into CRS, I couldn't remember all the details as to who and where it was that I read it. I was thinking it was here, but with my memory, who knows. Thanks for posting a link to the full story. I probably left something important out of my version.

Terry

Terry and Jo · RV-Dreams Family Member

D and M wrote:
Terry,

Our Mobile Suites have a Surge Protector w/ Voltage Protection & Remote Display. Is the PI system and/or Autoformer still needed?

Dave

Dave and Marilyn,

I'm not sure. I've got something similar in ours, but I can't remember (see above post about CRS) whether ours has "voltage protection" and in what way it protects. I can say that we had a circumstance that the electrical supply line from the electric company had an open neutral wire, and we lost all power. If I remember right, we ran off of generator for a while and if I tried to reconnect to shore power, some device in the basement just kept clicking and humming. So, I suspect that whatever is in the system did some protection, I don't know the details of just how that works. I guess I need to check my original "build sheet" to see how that device was named and get in touch with someone at the factory to explain what and how that protective device works.

I don't know if you are a member over on SOITC (Suites Owners International Travel Club), but one of the members there has started a new website on which a lot of information about he DRV products will be located. Here is a link to the SOITC forum thread where that site is discussed.

DRV Owner's Manual Website

I've got a bunch of information that I've gleaned from various sources over the years that I will "contribute" to the new site. They are talking about manuals, schematic diagrams, and who knows what else that would be beneficial to both current owners and those looking to buy.

Terry

D and M · RV-Dreams Family Member

Thanks Terry. I suspect we have some level of protection but probably not what we need...especially for low voltage situations. I am a member of SOITC and will check out the new site.

As always, thanks for the great information and advice.

Dave

Bill and Linda · RV-Dreams Family Member

lindy wrote:
Since we got our new home for full timing I'm at sort of a quandary as to electrical protection needs. I know that a surge protector is almost a must but am wondering about i.e. a Hughes Autoformer? As yet I haven't run into any low voltage conditions in the campgrounds we've used. Once we start full timing, I have the feeling that some of the campgrounds could fall into the low voltage category. Some of the reviews I've read about the military campgrounds are iffy. How many of you as full timers use a voltage autoformer, and is it worth the up front $???

Dana:

I’ll give a shot at your question.

You indicated “must have’s.” You must have a high quality surge, voltage, spite, proper connection - protection device. Being full time is not the criteria. You should have one "any-time."

The Progressive Industries HW-50C by specification is the best and has saved our rig multiple times from high, low, etc. etc. power issues which you will find in ALL campgrounds from time-to-time. The Surge Guard is the second best but still very good. Believe it or not high voltage is as big a problem these days as low voltage. So is a problem called an “open neutral” which can “fry” everything in the rig. The HW-50C will prevent that and can provide other important power management information.

The EMS system in the Mobile Suites is not the HW-50C type according to the manual and also by examination when I visited the MS factory on two occasions. It has other functions. If I had a MS, or any rig, I would install an HW-50C immediately. It is, IMO, a big deal. I’ve had numerous emails thanking me for pushing this issue over the years when the HW-50C “saved” their rig while others in the same campground were not so fortunate.

The autoformer is another issue all together. I know how they work and their purpose. I don’t carry one as it has been my experience that when the voltage is low there usually isn’t enough “current capacity” left to boost the voltage before tripping the service breaker. (There is no free lunch with power.) I’m not saying autofomers are bad. Not at all. If you can afford one, fine to have. But in traveling a lot of miles in a lot of “power challenged” situations in the US, Canada and Alaska, I’ve just found that if I had one it wouldn’t have helped with the low voltage situation. So IMO, not a “must have.” But fine to have.

Hope that helps at bit.

Bill

bjoyce · RV-Dreams Family Member

Many I know who frequents membership campgrounds have an autoformer or similar unit, since low voltage is common in older membership campgrounds. In fact many Thousand Trail campground stores sold them for years. We have a 50AMP unit but rarely is it needed for 50AMP. But we often are glad to have it for 30AMP, in all kinds of campgrounds. It does work to keep our voltage up, but you do end up with less than 30AMPs of power when it boosts the voltage. There is no magic, it is just arithmetric. If the incoming voltage is 100 volts and the autoformer boosts 10% to 110 volts the campground breaker still is seeing 100 volts so it will trip when you get to 30AMPs of 100 volts, or 3000 watts. But at 110 volts, 3000 watts is about 27AMPs (3000/110). We have been in campgrounds where campers without autoformers accused those with them of "stealing electricity", since they can't run an air conditioner, but the ones with autoformers can. That is nonsense, but many do not understand arithmetric or electricity. I feel the price of an autoformer is cheaper than appliance replacement, especially an air conditioner.

Most autoformers will only boost up to 16%, so there are campgrounds they will not help enough, as Bill said. An example is the outer north loop at the Mount Vernon, WA Thousand Trails, where a 5AMP load will drop you below 100 volts.

Terry and Jo · RV-Dreams Family Member

Bill,

DRV offers two different options with regard to electrical protection. I was just looking at the latest "build sheet" that lists options and prices. That sheet shows the following:

1. Power Management System

2. Surge Protector with Voltage Protection and Remote Display.

Option 1 is the system that operates when on a 30-amp circuit and shuts off select devices or appliances as the electrical load is increased by another device. I don't know if your reference to an EMS is the same kind of system, although I do suspect that.

That said, I don't know what kind of protection is actually provided by option 2, so that is the one that I need to research.

Terry

Bill and Linda · RV-Dreams Family Member

bjoyce wrote:
Many I know who frequents membership campgrounds have an autoformer or similar unit, since low voltage is common in older membership campgrounds. In fact many Thousand Trail campground stores sold them for years. We have a 50AMP unit but rarely is it needed for 50AMP. But we often are glad to have it for 30AMP, in all kinds of campgrounds. It does work to keep our voltage up, but you do end up with less than 30AMPs of power when it boosts the voltage. There is no magic, it is just arithmetric. If the incoming voltage is 100 volts and the autoformer boosts 10% to 110 volts the campground breaker still is seeing 100 volts so it will trip when you get to 30AMPs of 100 volts, or 3000 watts. But at 110 volts, 3000 watts is about 27AMPs (3000/110). We have been in campgrounds where campers without autoformers accused those with them of "stealing electricity", since they can't run an air conditioner, but the ones with autoformers can. That is nonsense, but many do not understand arithmetric or electricity. I feel the price of an autoformer is cheaper than appliance replacement, especially an air conditioner.

Most autoformers will only boost up to 16%, so there are campgrounds they will not help enough, as Bill said. An example is the outer north loop at the Mount Vernon, WA Thousand Trails, where a 5AMP load will drop you below 100 volts.

Bill:

Yea, that’s just kind of been my experience overall and I fully agree with your post. I’ve been to places where no load voltage was 110 but under even a 10 amp load it went down into the 90’s and that just wasn’t going to boost. Now, the power also went down in frequency so it was pretty obvious the genny at the camp ground didn’t have frequency control. Another reason for the HW-50C. It monitors frequency and protects for that as well. Didn't mention that before and probably should have.

Truth be known, I don’t have one because I didn’t like dealing with it outside the rig – security and potential water proof issue issue. Technically they are not approved to hard wire into the rig. I prefer the hard wire installation with a by-pass switch and I’m sort of out of space in the electrical bay with all the other additions. {Grin}

But still, it’s a nice tool to have in the bag. Not must have – but very nice to have and I agree.

Bill

Bill and Linda · RV-Dreams Family Member

Terry and Jo wrote:
Bill,
DRV offers two different options with regard to electrical protection. I was just looking at the latest "build sheet" that lists options and prices. That sheet shows the following:
1. Power Management System
2. Surge Protector with Voltage Protection and Remote Display.
Option 1 is the system that operates when on a 30-amp circuit and shuts off select devices or appliances as the electrical load is increased by another device. I don't know if your reference to an EMS is the same kind of system, although I do suspect that.
That said, I don't know what kind of protection is actually provided by option 2, so that is the one that I need to research.
Terry

Terry:

Yes, I did finally see a MS at the Tampa RV show this year with an HW-50C w\ readout installed. New addition to the option list. I.e. your “Option 2” is an HW-50C with the remote read out and by-pass control in the rig. But in the discussion here and other places on the forum that option was not available or installed on those rigs – at least factory installed – so I used their term: EMS.

Some background for your research as might be helpful:

When we visited the MS plant a couple of times I asked about a true electrical protection system as the “EMS” provided (the “turn off stuff” on 30/20 amps system, etc.) was not a true full protection system. Basically the guy giving me the tour and handling my inquires about a rig was not familiar with what I was talking about. But during a subsequent visit, as we were spec-ing out a rig, I guess I was finally speaking with the right guy as now it is offered. We consider it to be a “must have.” He seemed interested in what I had to say and wrote it down. I think Jack had presented the same question / suggestion to them as well when in was in the market.

This is all personal preference, but I don’t prefer the EMS “automatic turn stuff off” system. I.e. when on 30 amps (or 20) I want to decide what to run on gas and what to run on the 30/20 amps as “it depends.” I might want to run the AC only, for example, which you many times can on 20amps but not if it is turned off by the EMS. I can run some of my coach on shore power and some on the inverter at the same time. It just gives me more flexibility. Personal preference the EMS Option 1 doesn’t offer and, again, just personal preference based on our travel needs for flexibility.

If the EMS, Option 1 fails, as a recent poster on the forum had happen, you’re out of luck power wise. In the case of Option 2, the HW-50C failure mode is by-pass but still with surge protection. The odds of one big relay failing in the normally closed mode is very low which is indeed the HW-50C’s failure mode.

Again, this is all personal desire for flexibility.

Bill

bjoyce · RV-Dreams Family Member

Bill, neither our autoformer nor our Progressive portable needs to be outside since we have room in our electrical compartment for them. You probably have a marine style external connection, one thing I try to avoid when buying an RV, since I still need to find a place to store the cords and adapters.

On another note, Progressive calling their units an "EMS" has caused confusion for years since "EMS" is an already used RV term for a power management system that sheds loads like air conditioners to not exceed 20 or 30AMP service. Some RV manufacturers have installed power management systems and set up an RV as 30AMP only, to save on the wiring cost of going 50AMP.

On the main subject here, an inside voltage monitor is a good idea like this one, http://www.campingworld.com/shopping/item/digital-line-monitor/24900. Looking over and noticing you are down to 106 volts can be very educational. I prefer digital over an analog meter, low numbers jump out at you better. A "P3 International Kill A Watt" is also useful, less than $20 from Amazon. Plug any normal 120 volt appliance into it and leave it run a while to find out how much electricity the appliance uses along with highs and lows.

Bill and Linda · RV-Dreams Family Member

Bill:

Actually we have a factory installed auto electric reel for the power cord, not the marine type. So unless I put another connection in the basement power bay, which is full of a lot of stuff including solar controllers, I have to put the autoformer outside without some serious work. Maybe I should do that. The HW-50C is hardwired inside. But you point is so correct on someplace to store the power cords. I have an extra 45 feet (one 30 feet and one 15 feet) of 50 amp cable in addition to the 50 amp 30 footer on the electric reel. And a 30 foot 30 amp cable. On our NWT trip I actually used all 105 feet and got an honest 30 amps of power. Fortunately storage of those 3 extra cords is not much of an issue in our basement area. (BTW, I’ve used all that cable to actually reduce high voltage in a campground more than once. You do get some drop through that much cable.)

Yes, I completely agree on the EMS terminology thing. Seems we need to type about 2 paragraphs of introduction to answer some questions. That’s kind of a frustration because, like you, I want to give correct answers but many times I don’t know if the terminology I’m using is familiar to the questioner.

I do so agree with your comments about the voltage meter. Again, to probably over-state, the HW-50C has voltage, current, frequency, and “reason for last event” read outs plus a manual by-pass switch all on a 2”x3” more or less, panel which is very easy to place inside the rig and all the voltage in the remote cable and box is low and safe. The remote runs on what looks like telephone wall jack cable. RJ-15 looking stuff. Just a very useful little box.

Bill

MarkS · RV-Dreams Family Member

One thing to be aware of is that most modified sine wave inverters do not put out a healthy 110V output. I went through four refrigerators in my truck before I got one that has lasted. Now I wonder if running on the modified sine wave inverter was the cause of the failures.

Bill and Linda · RV-Dreams Family Member

MarkS wrote:
One thing to be aware of is that most modified sine wave inverters do not put out a healthy 110V output. I went through four refrigerators in my truck before I got one that has lasted. Now I wonder if running on the modified sine wave inverter was the cause of the failures.

Mark:

Good point. Can’t prove it but, yep, probably so. “Modern” electronics, even those with switching power supplies, don’t really care for modified sinewaves; causes harmonics among other things and even fridges have electronics in them.

IMO, you should carefully consider before purchasing modified sinewave inverters. You can purchase true sinewave units, at slightly lower power, for a very good price. I would opt for those first if possible and on a budget.

Bill