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I have found out this seems like a good place for great info. So my question is ,as i currently tow aboat that tips the scale at 11000. Lbs and is on a conventional trailer. We are looking into a 5th wheel toy hauler. From my owners manual and vin # info i belive i can tow 15,500 lbs on a 5th well set up. My truck has hellwig helper springs which helped keeping the ass end from sagging with the boat hooked up. So if the dry weight is around 13500 lets say. But gross is high 5s or 6 thousand and better, do most people tow full or dry, as i never hauled my boat full of water or fuel which was 40 gl water 90 gl fuel. . i don't want to over load the towing capabilities.
Thank you for any help, and unfortunately getting a dually is out of the question for now.
Steven, welcome. I want to tow full of fresh water with empty waste tanks so that I can stop anywhere I see inviting. However, others tow with nearly empty fresh water and fill (hopefully) at their CG. Yes, I know that 50 gallons of water (tank, water heater and pipes) weights about 415 pounds but many of our Western federal campgrounds are dry.
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Winnebago TT 2101DS & 2020 Silverado LTZ Z71. 300 watts WindyNation solar w/MPPT, 2 Trojan T-125s. TALL flag pole. Prefer USFS, COE, BLM, USF&WS, NPS, TVA, state/county camps. 14 year Army vet-11B40 then 11A - old MOS 1542 & 1560.
Thanks for the info. I know rv hauling will be a bit diffrent then towing my boat. But i have head its easier to tow a 5th wheel rv then a conventional trailer. Id assume its less abuse on the truck since the king pin is over the rear axle.
Thanks for the info. I know rv hauling will be a bit diffrent then towing my boat. But i have head its easier to tow a 5th wheel rv then a conventional trailer. Id assume its less abuse on the truck since the king pin is over the rear axle.
Steven:
These are great questions but here is the short version:
You will want a dual rear wheel truck for towing the 5th wheel you indicated so you don't exceed the rear axle weight rating of the truck as has been mentioned. Dual rear wheels also improve stability and they are just simply safer.
You will want a long bed, not a short bed, for towing. That's so you have the proper clearance between the front of the trailer and cab of the truck with out using a slider hitch. In a turn, without the proper clearance the trailer will run into the cab of the truck. Slider hitches are, at best, not recommended by most.
In the short version advise, don't listen to anything the truck salesman says about what the truck can tow. Towing weight isn't the deal. It's the combined weight of the truck and trailer (CGVWR) and moreover the rear axle capacity (RAWR) for the pin weight of the 5th wheel.
Lots of discussions on this forum concerning all of the above. Feel free to ask questions.
Thank you bill. I know theres lots of info out there. Lol. Some good some not. Haha. Ask the same question to 10 people, usally you'll get10 different answers. I plan on taking out my tool box and ladder racks. Then going to the cat scales and get her weighed properly. Front axle,then rear. Then total weight with full fuel. I have understood that I'd need at minimum a slide hitch. So, in your opinion i shouldn't entertain a 5th wheel with a dry weight around 12500 Lbs. Even though its rated to 15500. Total gvwr is i believe 24000. Its nice to hear from people that actually have been down this road " pun intended" lol.
Here's a story that will give you a lot to think about.
Ray's Camping Trip
To illustrate this under real world conditions, let us examine the following hypothetical scenario. The people and trip are fictitious, but the vehicle specs and weights are real.
Ray has just purchased a shiny new Ford four wheel drive Super Cab short bed. He has a 5.4L V8, a 3.55 axle, and a 139" wheelbase. The curb weight is 4,775 pounds with a payload of 1,725 pounds, for a GVWR of 6,500. The GCWR is 11,500, with a maximum trailer weight of 7,800.
He has invited his best buddies, George, Fred, and Al to go with him for a long weekend of camping, fishing, and relaxing. They will be towing Ray's old fiberglass boat and trailer.
Ray has installed a fiberglass topper on his truck, which weighs in at 165 pounds. Additionally, he carries jumper cables (2 pounds), a tool box (25), and a first aid kit (2). This has now reduced his available payload to 1,531 pounds (1,725 minus 165 minus 2 minus 25 minus 2 equals 1,531).
Ray weighs in at 190, George is 195, Fred is 185, and Al weighs 170. Subtracting this from the available remaining payload of 1,531 gives us 791 pounds of payload available (1,531 minus 190 minus 195 minus 185 minus 170 equals 791).
The four-person tent they are carrying weighs 23 pounds, four sleeping bags are another 20 pounds, the cook stove is 5 and two lanterns are an additional 4 pounds. Total is 52, leaving us with 739 available.
Now, let's add in the cooler, with hot dogs, hamburgers, etc. (25), two cases of beer at 20 pounds each (light beer does NOT weigh less), coffee, snacks, canned goods (10), pots, pans, utensils, dishes (15), and these items add another 90 pounds of weight. Four folding chairs (16), personal items, i.e. shaving kit, change of clothes, jackets, etc. (15 pounds each), tackle box, boots, etc. (10 each), subtract another 116 pounds, bringing us down to 533 pounds remaining.
Ray's older 20-foot fiberglass boat, with a galvanized trailer and big engine, weighs in at 5,250 pounds, fully outfitted. Since it is properly loaded, the tongue weight is 10 percent or 525 pounds. Subtract this tongue weight from the remaining payload of 533, and we are safe by 8 pounds. Or are we?
Pay Attention
As you can see by this example, neither the payload nor the trailer rating was exceeded, yet Ray was still overloaded. Without paying attention to what is put in/on the vehicle, it is very easy to become overloaded without even trying.
Adding to this illusion is the fact there is still plenty of space in the pickup bed for more items. Can the vehicle handle this? Perhaps, but stopping distances are increased, handling is severely affected, and the liability is unbelievable.
Try this little test on yourself. Take several common items and estimate their weights. Then, put them on a scale and compare their actual weights with your estimate. You will be amazed at the differences.
By becoming more aware of how quickly these can add up, you will not only save money, but also put a much safer fleet on the road. What price can you put on that?
Thank you bill. I know theres lots of info out there. Lol. Some good some not. Haha. Ask the same question to 10 people, usally you'll get10 different answers. I plan on taking out my tool box and ladder racks. Then going to the cat scales and get her weighed properly. Front axle,then rear. Then total weight with full fuel. I have understood that I'd need at minimum a slide hitch. So, in your opinion i shouldn't entertain a 5th wheel with a dry weight around 12500 Lbs. Even though its rated to 15500. Total gvwr is i believe 24000. Its nice to hear from people that actually have been down this road " pun intended" lol.
Steven:
There is more to this than dry weight on the sales sticker, which may or may not be accurate, and the GVWR of 15,550 lbs if one is serious about safety, IMO.
Over many years I've had this same discussion which comes down to, sometimes, this is what I have and I want / need to use it. But all this comes down to is math. As the story above illustrates, "weight happens." The trailer and truck always gain weight - a lot more then most realize. I know people "make it work" because nothing failed - yet. But your asking for opinions and mine, from doing this for a long time, is as I've stated in my previous post.
Now, if this is a "weekend" camper, little actual travel except from and back to home base that, financially, is another story. But this forum is, mostly, for full-timers or, like us, long-time in the rig, lots of travel RVers; that is our point of reference. One doesn't need a Ram 5500HD to do what we do with an RV except with the size and weight of the trailer we pull. But one does need that much truck if the math for the weighs says so along with dual rear wheels regardless. It's just math and good math equals more safety and no drama. One needs to do the math for all axles including maximum possible pin and trailer weights. Remember, pin weight will increase when the trailer is loaded. What the RV sales guy says is not what it will be loaded.
We've had people say to us many times, "Why didn't someone tell me?" after an "incident." Some can pull a 15,500 lb trailer with some single rear wheel trucks and a slider hitch. But, IMO, not recommended. Addition concern: can they stop it, especially without disc brakes on the trailer. Just way too much of a generalization in the question to say all will be just fine without hard numbers. It would be irresponsible to say otherwise.
To add to Bill's comments regarding pin weight increases as the trailer is loaded, my 5th wheel pin weight when new, dry and empty was 2,640 lbs. Now, fully loaded, 1/2 tank of fresh water and empty waste tanks the pin now weighs 3,720 lbs. This is more usual than not so expect and plan for that kind of "weight creep".
-- Edited by RonC on Wednesday 12th of April 2017 07:46:57 PM
-- Edited by RonC on Wednesday 12th of April 2017 07:47:21 PM
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Ron and Janice
2016 Ford F350, King Ranch, DRW, 4x4, CC, 6.7 PS Diesel, remote control air lift system
2017 Durango Gold 381REF, Lambright furniture, MCD shades, morRYDE IS, 8K Disc brakes, GY G114 LR H Tires, 27,320 lbs CGVW
Thanks ron. Great info. Thats a area of major importance to me , to learn about pin weight and how to caculate it and make sure i dont exceed it. I want to be safe as possible for my family and other people on the road. Being a boater has made me very big on safety. Weather im towing my boat or construction trailer im always careful. Towing i think actually makes me a safer driver, as i dont speed and find myself more observant then normal. So again thank you all for the tips n info.
Steven ... Towing a 5th wheel involves BOTH towing capability (CGVWR) and carrying capability (GVWR). The single most often exceeded weight RATING is the rear axle weight rating. The rear axle must "carry" the pin weight of the 5th wheel, in addition to towing the entire trailer weight. Calculating pin weight is pretty straightforward, you need to take your truck fully loaded to travel full of fuel and with the usual passengers to a CAT scale (there's one at most truck stops). The weighing process will give you you front axle weight, rear axle weight (the scale ticket will list this as "drive axle weight" and, of course, total weight. Now go hook up your 5th wheel and go back and weigh the whole rig. The difference between the rear (drive) axle weight with and without the 5th wheel is your pin weight. There is no other way to get this number (that I'm aware of). BTW, the rear axle weight of the drive axle WITH the 5th wheel hooked up MUST NOT exceed the rear axle weight RATING ... which is on a placard in the drivers side door pillar. The RATING and the actual weight are often confused, but the "law" is only interested in your RATINGS. Exceed the ratings, and you are running afoul of the law. Exceed the actual weights and you are getting into lawyer and insurance company areas of interest. IMHO ... your actual weights should be at least 20% below any and all weight RATINGS. This is why you are "under trucked" for the weight you expect to tow and why Bill strongly recommends a DRW Diesel. I learned all of this the hard way and it cost me some money, which why you are getting the advice you are getting. Many of us had to pay our "stupid tax" so we hope to save others from suffering that same fate. Good luck, be safe!
-- Edited by RonC on Tuesday 21st of March 2017 08:43:04 PM
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Ron and Janice
2016 Ford F350, King Ranch, DRW, 4x4, CC, 6.7 PS Diesel, remote control air lift system
2017 Durango Gold 381REF, Lambright furniture, MCD shades, morRYDE IS, 8K Disc brakes, GY G114 LR H Tires, 27,320 lbs CGVW
You should consider the information Ron, Bill, Eric, & Cummins provided above as golden.
Especially if Cummins tells you "WAY too much for that truck! You will run out to payload as in exceed your RAWR."
Getting to know Cummins on this forum, if I heard that come from him I would steer clear!!!! So I am not going to add to their comments but I would like to add a few things about the trailer weight.
Bumper pull trailers typically have about 10% tongue weight so with your 11,000 lbs boat trailer you should have around 1,100 pounds tongue weight & you mentioned needing helper springs to avoid dragging the bumper.
5th wheel & goose neck trailers are usually near 20% and for 5th wheel RV's this is on the heavy side 21-23%. So even if you keep your 5th wheel empty at 13,500 that is 2,700 lbs pin weight.
Two things I have found with RV trailers.
1.) Claimed dry weight on a website is always lower than actual
2.) You always put more stuff stuff in your RV & truck than you think you will
When selecting a 5th wheel I would look at the GVW rating of the trailer and add about 10%....I think you will find especially with full timers that most run their 5th wheel at or above GVW rating. Then as Ron mentioned find a truck that has a 20% margin.
... When selecting a 5th wheel I would look at the GVW rating of the trailer and add about 10%....I think you will find especially with full timers that most run their 5th wheel at or above GVW rating. Then as Ron mentioned find a truck that has a 20% margin.
Andy
Just to be clear, you are not arguing that you should be adding 10% to the stickered GVW of the trailer as your upper limit just because others are doing it, are you? I like the 20% margin for the tow vehicle idea, but any margin is better than none. If that means something cannot go or I need a more capable truck... I'll cross that bridge if and when I come to it.
Brian
-- Edited by BiggarView on Thursday 23rd of March 2017 08:18:19 AM
... When selecting a 5th wheel I would look at the GVW rating of the trailer and add about 10%....I think you will find especially with full timers that most run their 5th wheel at or above GVW rating. Then as Ron mentioned find a truck that has a 20% margin.
Andy
Just to be clear, you are not arguing that you should be adding 10% to the stickered GVW of the trailer as your upper limit just because others are doing it, are you? I like the 20% margin for the tow vehicle idea, but any margin is better than none. If that means something cannot go or I need a more capable truck... I'll cross that bridge if and when I come to it.
Brian
-- Edited by BiggarView on Thursday 23rd of March 2017 08:18:19 AM
Brian, Andy can speak for himself, but I what I understand him to say is that most full-timers are OVER the rating of the trailer by 10% because they add so much cargo and the cargo capacity of the trailer is usually pretty limited vs. what is actually carried.
In all of this campfire discourse is missing the fact that one can be at or under the trailer's GVWR and yet way over an axle spindle / hub rating. Much like the rear axle rating of the truck the hub rating on one wheel is usually the limiting weight factor. That is the individual wheel weights which are typically one-half of the axle rating is what gets exceed even before reaching the GVWR of the trailer. This simply due to more weight on one side of the trailer then the other - galley vs. the other side for example. While common sense, one has to realize this fact and people new to the RV world don't because they simply haven't yet been informed. This wheel weight issue is yet another reason for blowouts among other failure factors.
Just to be clear, you are not arguing that you should be adding 10% to the stickered GVW of the trailer as your upper limit just because others are doing it, are you?
Brian
-- Edited by BiggarView on Thursday 23rd of March 2017 08:18:19 AM
Brian - Absolutely not recommending going over any placard weight but a few more comments to clarify.
Howard talks about this in the Rally's and they have personal experience wheel weighing rigs. A significant percentage of the rigs are overweight in some form.
Snippet from http://www.rvweigh.com/Why%20You%20Should%20Weigh%20Your%20RV.pdf
...data from the RV Safety Education Foundation (RVSEF). They found that out of all the RV’s they weighed 33% had overloaded tires. Twenty-two percent of all rear tires were overloaded and 28% of all motorhomes were out of balance side-to-side by 400 pounds or more. In a separate survey done by Bridgestone/Firestone Tire they found that 4 out of 5 RV’s had at least one underinflated tire. One third of those were extremely underinflated and at risk of failing.
RV's in general & 5th wheels especially by design allow 1,500 lbs to maybe 3,500 lbs cargo capacity depending on make & manufacturer. If you have a 100 gallon water tank full that is 800 lbs ..... nearly half of the available cargo weight. Even if it is a short distance from the entrance of a campground, boondocking location or some other location you will be driving overweight at least for a short duration or you don't have any stuff with you.
Point here is most rigs will be closer to GVW of the trailer vs. the dry weight.
So yes I would argue when calculating numbers to determine the size of the truck a tongue weight that is equivalent to ~21% of GVW + 10% would be a good number.
So my point to consider for Steven is simply look at the GVW + a little instead of the dry weight when selecting a truck. Then do everything possible to keep your 5th wheel on a diet.
Whew, for a second there... all I know is you can't go over the placard weight and you have to be also mindful of not over loading the tires on either side... so load distribution is important and more so as you approach those limits. The way it was worded, suggested to me that there was some common practice that seemed to violate those principles. I did gather from many reports on here and elsewhere that people frequently go past those limits or guidelines and seemingly without even knowing that they are... until either tragedy or a weighing occurs. Just making sure that when we hit the road we stay "in the good" no matter what we get or how we load it out. Safety first.
Brian
-- Edited by BiggarView on Thursday 23rd of March 2017 01:09:57 PM
Actually Brian, it is a common practice ... not a negligently intentional one, but common none the less. What gets people in trouble is that they overload their truck or trailer (sometimes both) and don't make the necessary changes to accommodate the overweight condition. To illustrate my point ... and I'm guessing here, but I think H&L weigh nearly 20,000 lbs and their rig's GVWR is 16,980 lbs (my only guess is their current weight, the actual GVWR is a matter of record). It came equipped with Goodyear G614 G rated tires and Dexter 7K axles with electric drum brakes. They have upgraded to 8K MorRyde IS and disc brakes and H rated Goodyear G114 tires ... so while their actual weight is easily handled by their selection of tires, suspension and brake components. None of this changed the GVWR. They may have changed the GVW that the trailer can safely handle, but the rating is unchanged. Many full timers make similar changes for similar reasons. Providing this information, not to endorse or condemn, but to clarify.
Your intention to "stay in the good on all weight ratings" is spot on ... if possible ... but if not, then adjust the equipment so that it will handle the situation SAFELY. Your last point is perfect and correct.
-- Edited by RonC on Thursday 23rd of March 2017 03:55:03 PM
-- Edited by RonC on Thursday 23rd of March 2017 03:58:46 PM
-- Edited by RonC on Thursday 23rd of March 2017 04:02:41 PM
-- Edited by RonC on Thursday 23rd of March 2017 09:03:24 PM
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Ron and Janice
2016 Ford F350, King Ranch, DRW, 4x4, CC, 6.7 PS Diesel, remote control air lift system
2017 Durango Gold 381REF, Lambright furniture, MCD shades, morRYDE IS, 8K Disc brakes, GY G114 LR H Tires, 27,320 lbs CGVW
Lmao.. Stupid tax. Great saying. Im stealing that one!!! Lol. Thats one tax i dont plan on paying. Haha, at
East on the tow weightanyway. But I'm sure I'll be paying that tax on other things related to rving.
I can't thank everyone for the great info. And thanks for explaing pin rating. I totally get it now. So hopefully i can purchase the correct size 5th wheel. Hopefully I'll be able to sell my boat and be rving this year. Maybe some day i can repay you guys at a campsite with a cold beer ,drink or some great food.
So if anyone has a opinion as to a max weight that they would recommend knowing that my 08 f350 srw is at 15000 lbs 55th wheel and total gvwr 23500.
And again thanks for the advice, i truly appreciate it. I get the feeling the rv community is like the boating community. We are always will to help fellow boater. No matter the size of there walley or boat. We all seem to get along
Ron. It would my pleasure to share a adult (or several) lol beverages with you. I unfortunately dont know when ill sell the boat and become a land lubber. Lol. But if your ever travelling in conn I'd be happy to pour that drink on the boat. Again thanks for the sound advice.
Steven, welcome. I want to tow full of fresh water with empty waste tanks so that I can stop anywhere I see inviting. However, others tow with nearly empty fresh water and fill (hopefully) at their CG. Yes, I know that 50 gallons of water (tank, water heater and pipes) weights about 415 pounds but many of our Western federal campgrounds are dry.
Larry's choice represents many RVers who prefer to dry camp or boondock. They must carry the water with them to allow for this. Water weighs a bit over 8 lbs per gallon, so the amount you carry can move your weight up or down by hundreds of pounds. My fresh water tank is just behind my rear axle on the left side of the rig. That location makes my left rear wheel the "heavy" wheel. At my last weighing with 1/2 tank of fresh water (about 30 gals which weighs about 240 lbs) my left rear wheel weighed 3,240. I have 7,000 lbs axles which really means that each individual wheel can weigh up to 3,500 lbs maximum. So I'm close on that on my left rear wheel. The problem with being that close is that as you go down the road the bouncing causes that weight to be "dynamic" ... meaning that it goes both up and down from the static weight of 3,240 ... it probably comes very close to reaching the limit of 3,500 lbs during brief transitional loadings. These transitional loads occur on the front axle, rear axle and trailer axles, which is why I suggest a 20% cushion on the weight ratings because you will use some of that cushion during the transitional loading periods as you drive down the road. I am going to upgrade to bigger axles for this reason, and in the interim, I'm going to carry less water to lower the weight on that corner. I'm not a fan of dry camping or boon docking, so I don't need to carry much water with me as we are full hook up people. Just more info for you to digest.
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Ron and Janice
2016 Ford F350, King Ranch, DRW, 4x4, CC, 6.7 PS Diesel, remote control air lift system
2017 Durango Gold 381REF, Lambright furniture, MCD shades, morRYDE IS, 8K Disc brakes, GY G114 LR H Tires, 27,320 lbs CGVW
Hi larry. . i figured towing dry or close to dry would be better for weight. But i can understand i also needing to fill up if booning it. I figured it was kinda like boating. I would keep a 1/4 tank if i was transient docking or just out for the day. But full water for weekend trips. Water in a holding tank may help you burn more gas , but it usally helps with giving the boat more weight, which helped soften the ride.
I assume a 1/2 or 3/4 tank on a rv would be kinda like the opposite of gyroscope, i can imagine that water slouching around makes the trailer sway more. Is that true?
Hope all , i actually went rv shop . the wife and I found a beautiful kz 2500. Hopefully the deal will be made soon. And will be on the road with you fellow 5ers.
"I assume a 1/2 or 3/4 tank on a rv would be kinda like the opposite of gyroscope, i can imagine that water sloshing around makes the trailer sway more. Is that true?"
Never experienced that ... at least I never felt anything that would be attributed to water sloshing. But my brain says "yeah, that must be so to some degree". Fresh Water Tanks may or may not have slosh baffles ... I don't really know, but I have not experienced any rocking personally. In a lighter rig it could be more noticeable.
-- Edited by RonC on Saturday 15th of April 2017 10:18:36 PM
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Ron and Janice
2016 Ford F350, King Ranch, DRW, 4x4, CC, 6.7 PS Diesel, remote control air lift system
2017 Durango Gold 381REF, Lambright furniture, MCD shades, morRYDE IS, 8K Disc brakes, GY G114 LR H Tires, 27,320 lbs CGVW
