Power surge and TRC Surgeguard 34750 didn't work as designed - RV-Dreams Community Forum

Jeffmarl · RV-Dreams Community Member

Power surge and TRC Surgeguard 34750 didn't work as designed

Bill and Linda · RV-Dreams Family Member

RE: Power surge and TRC Surgeguard 34750 didn't work as designed.

Jeffmarl · RV-Dreams Community Member

RE: Power surge and TRC Surgeguard 34750 didn't work as designed

RonC · RV-Dreams Family Member

After getting nothing but good advice from Bill over the last year, this post caught my eye. I went to Amazon intending to buy the portable version of the Progressive Industries 50 Amp protector. I was surprised at all the negative comments regarding the units susceptibility to water invasion during rain storms. One gent opened his up and water came pouring out! Water and electricity are a bad combination. I understand that the hard wired version would be protected from the elements, which would eliminate the water issue, but the hard wiring thing would be an all day job for me due to where the electrical plug is and what would have to be removed to gain access. I currently have a Technology Research 44270 Surge Guard 50 Amp Surge Protector plugged into the park's pedestal and a Hughes 50 Amp Autoformer (model RV 220-50) plugged into the the Surge Protector and the 5er plugged into the Autoformer. I actually use the Surge Protector to protect the Hughes Autoformer as it's a $500 unit. Sort of hybrid thing trying to get the best of both.

-- Edited by RonC on Friday 30th of December 2016 12:59:24 PM

Jeffmarl · RV-Dreams Community Member

Ron,

Just received an email from RV upgrades showing the newly designed Progressive units that address the water issue. As Bill mentioned earlier the built in might be the way to go as they have a bypass if needed. I had the portable before.

Jeff

Bill and Linda · RV-Dreams Family Member

Jeffmarl wrote:
Bill,
Thanks for your quick reply and explanation. This makes some since I guess. On the progressive unit, we owned one and had numerous issues with it. Yes the company was good about repairing it and returning it but we had lots of false readings with it,for example it would read high voltage and I would check pole with volt meter and it would read 120 v and the unit was saying 160. Thats why I got rid of it and tried the TRC. What do you make of the Florida Power and Light guy saying he hated these surge protectors? I have always tried to run a tight ship and be proactive in maintence and upkeep. I do alot or as much as I can myself because good service is so hard to find. But when it comes to AC I have very limited knowledge but am open to learning to save headaches and money.
Thanks Again

Your comment about the PI reading 160 and the pole reading 120 - sounds like you might have been reading a different leg. Lots of old transformers will output higher voltage on one leg then the other two - the old "Y" vs. "Delta" transformer wring thing. In 11 years I've never had an issue with the PI unit. That's all I can say.

As to the FP&L guy (when I worked in Florida we used to call them Florida Flicker and Light - but I digress) not liking them - well they show a lot of voltage issues that maybe the utility company doesn't care to deal with - note comment about old pole transformers with the the "high leg" issues that are not that uncommon in campgrounds.

Bill and Linda · RV-Dreams Family Member

RonC wrote:
After getting nothing but good advice from Bill over the last year, this post caught my eye. I went to Amazon intending to buy the portable version of the Progressive Industries 50 Amp protector. I was surprised at all the negative comments regarding the units susceptibility to water invasion during rain storms. One gent opened his up and water came pouring out! Water and electricity are a bad combination. I understand that the hard wired version would be protected from the elements, which would eliminate the water issue, but the hard wiring thing would be an all day job for me due to where the electrical plug is and what would have to be removed to gain access. I currently have a Technology Research 44270 Surge Guard 50 Amp Surge Protector plugged into the park's pedestal and a Hughes 50 Amp Autoformer (model RV 220-50) plugged into the the Surge Protector and the 5er plugged into the Autoformer. I actually use the Surge Protector to protect the Hughes Autoformer as it's a $500 unit. Sort of hybrid thing trying to get the best of both.

-- Edited by RonC on Friday 30th of December 2016 12:59:24 PM

Ron, I've never recommended any "out door" protection device including the one from Progressive Industries. I've always recommend the HW50C which goes in the coach. Yes, an all day project for some. Worth it for me. Again, a choice. I, personally, wouldn't use any out door unit for many of the reasons you indicate starting with water. Redesigned or not, IMO, why put a box full of critical circuitry outside where water can get into it and have another set of contacts with the extra plug to deteriorate. Again, my opinion. I'm pretty sure if you read any of my posts over the years on this subject I've always given the specific model number I recommend.

As to the Autoformer - that's fine. No objection. But to be "legal" it has to go at the pole. Can't "legally" wire that into the coach per the instructions. As it has to go outside I've opted not to have one and so far been fine without it. But it is fine to have. A choice.

Bill and Linda · RV-Dreams Family Member

Jeffmarl wrote:
Ron,
Just received an email from RV upgrades showing the newly designed Progressive units that address the water issue. As Bill mentioned earlier the built in might be the way to go as they have a bypass if needed. I had the portable before.
Jeff

Jeff, FWIW, as I commented above, I really would put the device in the rig. Yes, it takes a little time to wire it in - 4 wires in - 4 wires out, plus running the little wire from the box to the read out. But keeping everything in the rig is just, IMO, a better design and the work is worth the gain and protection. I just don't like the portable units as they don't offer the same overall functionality. But that's just my opinion.

RonC · RV-Dreams Family Member

Bill and Linda wrote:
RonC wrote:
After getting nothing but good advice from Bill over the last year, this post caught my eye. I went to Amazon intending to buy the portable version of the Progressive Industries 50 Amp protector. I was surprised at all the negative comments regarding the units susceptibility to water invasion during rain storms. One gent opened his up and water came pouring out! Water and electricity are a bad combination. I understand that the hard wired version would be protected from the elements, which would eliminate the water issue, but the hard wiring thing would be an all day job for me due to where the electrical plug is and what would have to be removed to gain access. I currently have a Technology Research 44270 Surge Guard 50 Amp Surge Protector plugged into the park's pedestal and a Hughes 50 Amp Autoformer (model RV 220-50) plugged into the the Surge Protector and the 5er plugged into the Autoformer. I actually use the Surge Protector to protect the Hughes Autoformer as it's a $500 unit. Sort of hybrid thing trying to get the best of both.

-- Edited by RonC on Friday 30th of December 2016 12:59:24 PM
Ron, I've never recommended any "out door" protection device including the one from Progressive Industries. I've always recommend the HW50C which goes in the coach. Yes, an all day project for some. Worth it for me. Again, a choice. I, personally, wouldn't use any out door unit for many of the reasons you indicate starting with water. Redesigned or not, IMO, why put a box full of critical circuitry outside where water can get into it and have another set of contacts with the extra plug to deteriorate. Again, my opinion. I'm pretty sure if you read any of my posts over the years on this subject I've always given the specific model number I recommend.
As to the Autoformer - that's fine. No objection. But to be "legal" it has to go at the pole. Can't "legally" wire that into the coach per the instructions. As it has to go outside I've opted not to have one and so far been fine without it. But it is fine to have. A choice.

Bill, I wasn't saying that you recommended the outdoor unit. The "good advice" reference was a compliment. The reason I looked at the portable unit was that it was the brand you recommended (not the model) ... and if you recommend it, it's probably pretty good.

Jeffmarl · RV-Dreams Community Member

Bill, Thanks again for all your insight and knowledge. Guess I should have done my homework before I went out and bought a surge protector. I bought the first portable because I thought if it failed it would be easy to replace or fix and I would have the option to run without it. Didn't kwow the hardwired had the bypass feature. After doing a side by side comparison of the Progressive and TRC I see the Progressive has much better features.

We are getting ready to move tomorrow to Jonathan Dickinson State Park for our Camphost job. We were there last year and never had any issues with the power so I feel pretty confident the parks power will be OK. I have not gotten much response from TRC, they said they were going to ship me a mailer which I haven't received.

I have given what you said about the 8 sec delay some thought and I agree thats a LONG time to feed high voltage to the RV. What do you think could have caused this open neutral situation. Could the post be wired wrong but delivers the proper voltage when the demand is low but when I put on both air conditioners and the microwave it needed more power and delivered the 240V. Just kind of thinking outloud but just have this feeling maybe something is not quite right with the park power. We have not put any high demands on the power since we plugged back in, only one air,no microwave........etc. any more thoughts?

Bill and Linda · RV-Dreams Family Member

RonC wrote:
Bill and Linda wrote:
Ron, I've never recommended any "out door" protection device including the one from Progressive Industries. I've always recommend the HW50C which goes in the coach. Yes, an all day project for some. Worth it for me. Again, a choice. I, personally, wouldn't use any out door unit for many of the reasons you indicate starting with water. Redesigned or not, IMO, why put a box full of critical circuitry outside where water can get into it and have another set of contacts with the extra plug to deteriorate. Again, my opinion. I'm pretty sure if you read any of my posts over the years on this subject I've always given the specific model number I recommend.
As to the Autoformer - that's fine. No objection. But to be "legal" it has to go at the pole. Can't "legally" wire that into the coach per the instructions. As it has to go outside I've opted not to have one and so far been fine without it. But it is fine to have. A choice.
Bill, I wasn't saying that you recommended the outdoor unit. The "good advice" reference was a compliment. The reason I looked at the portable unit was that it was the brand you recommended (not the model) ... and if you recommend it, it's probably pretty good.

Ron, I took your comment as a compliment. Thank you. Always appreciated. Here's the deal - Many of these forum questions - especially the technical ones - really require a lot more explanation and Q&A to really make sure the response is understood and to get to the heart of the matter. I try to balance long answers, which many won't read or seem too technical, with enough specifics to make sure the thought is conveyed. I have no desire to be "right" about everything because many times what one does is "A choice" or "It depends" which I often state. But if I, or anyone else who perhaps has more experience in an area states "you have to buy the one I bought" then it comes off as a Ford / Chevy type argument. So I try to balance "do it my way" with choices if at all possible. I also try to point out the benefits of spending a bit more money now to not only save money and trouble later but also to enjoy value added by spending those extra dollars upfront. (Like "H" tires.)

Progressive Industries, IMO and in my experience, builds the best electrical protection system on the market - specifically the HW50C or the HW30C for 30 amp rigs with the in-the-coach read out. But they also make, as do other electrical product manufactures, products I would not recommend. Not because they are necessarily poorly designed. But because I wouldn't use that particular product no matter how well designed. An outside electrical protection system is one of those. While outside is better than nothing, I still wouldn't recommend them even though some are less expensive.

BTW, if installing the HW50C - IF the rig has a builtin generator change over switch I strongly recommend putting the HW50C before the switch, not after. That way the change over switch is protected from a lighting hit and if the HW50C "scarifies" itself to protect the rig one still has the generator for power until repairs can be made. If the HW50C is "after" the switch and the lighting takes out the switch then no shore or generator power.

So, for me, its kind of a tight rope between saying, as a friend says pretty bluntly, "You don't want that!" and trying to be specific and yet not hurt someone's feelings who did just that. After years of doing this it is still hard. But I really do hate to see people have issues when they can probably avoid them. Be those issues tires, electrical protection systems, suspensions, truck capacities or the like.

I doubt anyone is really interested in all of this but decided to write it anyway.

Terry and Jo · RV-Dreams Family Member

Bill,

Your comments are always of interest to me, so don't be hesitant to make them.

As for the PI system, we had one added to our Mobile Suites after we retired and headed for Colorado for a time. We did it because the site we were hooked up to in Oklahoma City had some power issues, which I think added to the issue of two different Whirlpool washers going on the fritz. We did get the hard-wired 50 amp system with the remote display, as I had seen plenty of recommendations here at RV Dreams about them.

Terry

RonC · RV-Dreams Family Member

Bill,

Your points are well taken. I do understand that when communicating on an open board, not knowing the technical acumen of the audience, over description and greater specificity is needed to provide as much clarity as possible. Even then, some will misunderstand. To respond to your final statement "I doubt anyone is really interested in all of this but decided to write it anyway." I am interested. You have taught me A LOT ... so I really appreciate it. I'd have learned those things eventually on my own, but only after I paid for the lessons.

Bill and Linda · RV-Dreams Family Member

Jeffmarl wrote:
Bill, Thanks again for all your insight and knowledge. Guess I should have done my homework before I went out and bought a surge protector. I bought the first portable because I thought if it failed it would be easy to replace or fix and I would have the option to run without it. Didn't kwow the hardwired had the bypass feature. After doing a side by side comparison of the Progressive and TRC I see the Progressive has much better features.
We are getting ready to move tomorrow to Jonathan Dickinson State Park for our Camphost job. We were there last year and never had any issues with the power so I feel pretty confident the parks power will be OK. I have not gotten much response from TRC, they said they were going to ship me a mailer which I haven't received.
I have given what you said about the 8 sec delay some thought and I agree thats a LONG time to feed high voltage to the RV. What do you think could have caused this open neutral situation. Could the post be wired wrong but delivers the proper voltage when the demand is low but when I put on both air conditioners and the microwave it needed more power and delivered the 240V. Just kind of thinking outloud but just have this feeling maybe something is not quite right with the park power. We have not put any high demands on the power since we plugged back in, only one air,no microwave........etc. any more thoughts?

Jeff, let's run through a few things FWIW. First, many refer to these power protection products pretty generically as "Surge Protectors." One can purchase a less expensive "surge protector" but all that does, while important, is basically protect against lighting strikes. Over voltage - say 145 volts, or more, won't cause a simple surge protector to do anything except sit there. They are for true very high spikes such as come from lightening. True power protection systems, EMS they are sometimes called, do surge protection and a lot, lot more as you have discovered. Over and under (think brown outs) voltage are but one of their functions. That is why true power protection systems, like the HW50C, cost a bunch more. And don't forget the in coach read out which can really tell you a lot concerning the current power situation and what happened. RV parks are notorious for bad power. While that situation is getting better with newer parks and re-wiring of older one, nonetheless campground power is an issue many times. You might want to search some threads where we have discussed this in detail. Happy to provide more info but there are many threads.

The 8 second response delay, as indicated in the cut sheet for the TRC, just makes no sense to me. Maybe I'm missing something. Won't be the first time. But this is not the air-conditioner delay which is much longer. Yes, 8 seconds can prevent nuisance power interruptions. But I'd rather know what's happening to the power rather then hope everything is going to be OK 8 seconds later. The PI's response time, if memory serves, is in the milliseconds to an error condition.

I am speculating what you had was an open neutral. But that's what it sounds like. In campgrounds those female pugs get a lot of wear and are exposed to the elements. Corrosion or a loose screw connection on the female receptacle could cause a momentary open neutral. It only takes a second to cause an issue. I don't know for sure how long the TLC product would take to respond to this condition but I know 8 seconds, if that were the case, is too long. Again, I am not personally familiar with that product. Never used one. I've just read the cut sheet on it which I did before responding to your query.

One must remember that a 50 amp RV is just two separate 120 volt circuits which tie to, share, the same neutral. IF that neutral is open - i.e. not connected to the CG neutral return bus, then two devices, e.g. satellite receiver / microwave, on the two different legs of the 50 amp service can all of a sudden "see" both 120 volt circuits through their power supplies and instant 240 volts across anything on those circuits. Instant burn stuff up. I can't be sure that's what happened but that, in response to your question, is my first guess.

All this is but one of the reasons a good EMS / power protection system is in my top three things every RV rig should have. #1 on my list is much better then usually come on the rig tires (don't care about what brand) and #2 is disc brakes. Both are different conversation. #3 is the EMS. Its number three because #1 and #2 can really hurt you physically.

Don't know how much this postmortem helps but maybe a little.

Bill

janieD · RV-Dreams Family Member

Jeffmarl wrote:
Bill, Thanks again for all your insight and knowledge. Guess I should have done my homework before I went out and bought a surge protector. I bought the first portable because I thought if it failed it would be easy to replace or fix and I would have the option to run without it. Didn't kwow the hardwired had the bypass feature. After doing a side by side comparison of the Progressive and TRC I see the Progressive has much better features.
We are getting ready to move tomorrow to Jonathan Dickinson State Park for our Camphost job. We were there last year and never had any issues with the power so I feel pretty confident the parks power will be OK. I have not gotten much response from TRC, they said they were going to ship me a mailer which I haven't received.
I have given what you said about the 8 sec delay some thought and I agree thats a LONG time to feed high voltage to the RV. What do you think could have caused this open neutral situation. Could the post be wired wrong but delivers the proper voltage when the demand is low but when I put on both air conditioners and the microwave it needed more power and delivered the 240V. Just kind of thinking outloud but just have this feeling maybe something is not quite right with the park power. We have not put any high demands on the power since we plugged back in, only one air,no microwave........etc. any more thoughts?

Hi Jeff,

I have the Suregard, same as you but the hard wired version. I'm not in the mood to change but I would be interested in what TRC says when they get back to you.

We ran in to a power problem at Sugar Bottom that I believe was an open or weak neutral. In our case, the Sureguard refused to apply power after the usual 2+ minute delay. There was no delay where we had power then lost it 8 seconds later (that I recall). I reset the 50 amp breakers then tried again. Same result, so I switched to 30 amp, which worked fine. The weird thing was the pole bugged out fine, which the park guy verified when I reported the problem. Sometimes the neutral only opens under a load, so that's what I decided was happening. 30 amp is inherently safer if you think you might have a problem since it's single phase. An open neutral with 30 amp will just be a loss of power.

An open neutral can be a tough problem to detect. The ems doesn't have a solid neutral to measure against, so it may fumble. I'm not sure what you could have done differently, but as soon as you suspect you have a problem get on 30 amp if it's available. Sureguard is a reliable product in my experience, but it failed to help in this case and that sucks.

If you want to upgrade to a kickass audio system, I have some ideas.

-John

CJSX2fromCT · RV-Dreams Family Member

"BTW, if installing the HW50C - IF the rig has a builtin generator change over switch I strongly recommend putting the HW50C before the switch, not after. That way the change over switch is protected from a lighting hit and if the HW50C "scarifies" itself to protect the rig one still has the generator for power until repairs can be made. If the HW50C is "after" the switch and the lighting takes out the switch then no shore or generator power."

Could not have said it any better, TY Bill. I have the hardwired HW50C I put in myself. The only issue I have had to date was... I left the generator cord plugged in the 5'er (I run mine while going down the road) The generators were off and I plugged into shore power, the HW50C would NOT let the power in while that cord was plugged in. Can't put a price on SAFETY.