In 2012 we replaced our dually. Wanted the Dodge but it was too high. Finally went with the Ford as it was inches (forgotten the measurements but the Ford was at least 4" lower from top of the box) lower than GM or Dodge.

The Schweitzers on the road wrote:

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P.S. we did not check out the Dodge since they don't make an extended cab long bed which is what we are after

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They make a crew cab with long box..I own one.

Maybe your thinking mega cab? where the rear seats recline? and there is like a 12" gap from the rear door to the end of the cab? That would be like 22ft long..lol

There are companies would will swap in a longbox on a mega cab...

 

 

Have you considered a hauler bed similar to the one Howard & Linda just had installed on their truck?  I know Classy Chassis, www.classychassistrucks.com, usually have some in stock or they will build one for you.  

dewwood wrote:

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Have you considered a hauler bed similar to the one Howard & Linda just had installed on their truck?  I know Classy Chassis, www.classychassistrucks.com, usually have some in stock or they will build one for you.  

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 this is not an option for us since we haul a truck camper when not towing the fifth wheel. If it was only a tow truck for the fifth wheel we would definitely consider it.

Bernd

The Schweitzers on the road wrote:

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Folks, we need your advice on this one:

When we started RVing we had to lower the hitch receiver in the truck bed and to lift the spring hangers on the fifth wheel to get an almost level rig (still a notch nose high). Having that experience in mind we took some measurements at the dealerships when looking for a new truck to avoid any surprises. Well, the news are not good. Our favorite truck would be the GMC 3500 HD, double cab, long bed, 4x4, SRW.

BUT! This beast sits high. It should either come with a stepstool or running boards installed. The load floor is about three inches higher than with the F350 we own now. To make things worse, the bed railings are another inch higher. We don't know how to deal with that but flip the axles on the trailer, a thing we are not inclined to do. We might have some wiggle room in the king pin, but not four inches. Also the trailer clears the bed rails by six inches right now. So getting the trailer level without flipping the axles would reduce that to two inches, not a good idea ...
The pin box is a 5th airborne, pretty big. Would another one help? The Mor/Ryde looks much smaller (flatter) on pictures.

Has anyone else had problems with tow trucks being too high? Seems like they have grown considerably in the last 10 years or so. How did you deal with that problem?

Any feedback/advice is much appreciated.

Bernd

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Bernd:

As you have discovered, all the new trucks 2011 and later have high bed rails, including the Ford.

Here is the simple fix:  Purchase the truck you want as this will be a problem with all new trucks, Chevy, Dodge and Ford.  You ALWAYS want the trailer to run level and have good bedrail clearance at the same time.  7” is good, 6” can work but I really recommend 7” for total safety.  Never raise the front of the trailer without raising the back as it shifts the weight on the axles.

You can have the trailer raised, commonly called “lifted” to give that clearance and then adjust the pin box and your hitch to make the trailer run level with the truck.  Lifting is perfectly safe and MOR/ryde is one competent shop to have this work done; among other really good things like improved suspension and disc brakes if the trailer doesn’t already have them.  This “lifting” can sometimes be ordered when the trailer is built but many times it has to be done later to match the truck, any truck, and trailer perfectly.  Don’t let this concern you, it’s done all the time and in no way diminishes the structure of the trailer frame.  In fact in some cases the lifting and addition of a MOR/ryde IS suspension system actually strengthens the frame.

Short of the above, the suggestion to put on a hauler bed from Classy Chassis or UBW is another great solution albeit more expensive.  But you do get the advantages of all that storage in the hauler bed.  We’ve loved ours on our Chevy.  After 52,000+ miles on the 2012 and now 3 trips across the US all good. Love the truck and the bed. Let me know if you need more info, etc.

Bill

fyi... I had to use wood blocks under the front jacks to get it high enough to get into the hitch.

The Schweitzers on the road wrote:

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Bill,
thanks very much for your advice. I still hope we can make it work without lifting the trailer (I would love to have the Mor/Ryde IS though, but that would be kind of an overkill for our rig).
It just came to my mind that we have another option: swap the 16" trailer rim and tires for 17" ones. We have about 6" between the trailer wheels now, so that should work and give the trailer a lift of almost 2" including the tires.
On the next test drive I will take the new truck to the trailer storage and drive it under the pin box. Probably a first for the sales guy ...
Bernd

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Bernd:

Couple of thoughts:  First if you are considering changing out “G” tires to “H” – 17.5” that is a VERY good idea regardless of the trailer’s weight.  However, that change out will only raise the trailer about ½”.  The 17.5” “H” tires are actually a big smaller than the “G’s” as to overall diameter.  I.e. the inner diameter – 17.5” is bigger, but the outer diameter is actually small(er) enough such that the overall diameter isn’t really much different from the 16” tires.

Concerning the “lift” without going to an IS suspension: You can still do a proper lift without going to an IS and MOR/ryde can do that.  It’s just adding a piece of steel between the axle support brackets and the frame.

That said, if you’re at 6” with the GM/Chevy you probably fine.  I was at 7” with the last truck before I went to the hauler bed and needed all of that 7’s” once.  6” is “close” but probably OK.  Nonetheless, I would look into the lift if at all possible.  Getting the rig and truck perfectly level really improves a lot of things.

Enjoy the new truck.  We have had two and are totally pleased with the 2012.  The Allison coupled with the exhaust (turbo) brake is just wonderful.  I use the service brakes very, very little even in the western mountains; mostly for the final stop, not to control speed.  Don’t be afraid to down shift many gears when coming down hill.  The Duramax has a top RPM limit, when braking, of 4,800 RPM. Unlike some lower RPM limit diesels it won’t “blow up” coming down hill doing the braking thing and you can downshift without concern.

Bill

Red & Bill,

it is so great to take advantage of the experience you already have. New rims 1-1/2" bigger will gain me only 1/2" in total? That's not what I would have expected. We can cross that idea off the list.
I'm happy to hear you like your GM trucks. We are very much leaning towards GM. Today we'll test drive the Ford. But Ford has a big handicap right away. The legroom on the passenger side is a lot narrowed by the transmission on the left side. DW has to sit in an awkward right tilted position thus stressing her knees and hips. This problem has not changed from the 2006 to 2015. We'll see how it goes.
Regarding Mor/Ryde IS and such: our trailer is a small toy compared to your rigs. We have 14600lbs GVWR and fully loaded when travelling we measured 13500lbs on a scale. (10800 on the axles, 2700 on the pin) Our standard wheels were 15" D rated and we upgraded to E rated tires two years ago.
Mor/Ryde is also too far away for us, we live in Victoria, BC.
This afternoon I'll drive out to the trailer storage and crawl under it, checking how much we can negotiate by flipping axles and adjusting spring hangers. We lifted the trailer adjusting the spring hangers when we first hooked it up to the truck. That was a 250$ bill.
We appreciate so much your thoughts and advice.
I'll keep you posted. Hope to show you the outcome in the not so far future.
Bernd

update
we test drove the Ford and took it to a scale. Could not believe the numbers, but it turned out this one ton truck has not enough payload to carry our camper !!! More than 300 lbs less than our 2006 F350!
Regardless of that surprise DW still had the twisted sitting position due to the space the tranny takes away on the passenger side. Two dealbrakers are too much.

So GM it will be. Took it for a second test drive. Drove it under the nose of the trailer. Only 1" between the bedrails and the trailer (sitting level on the ground).
Same exercise with our 2006 F350. 2.5" between bedrails and trailer. Hitching up the trailer lets the truck squat about 4", leaving 6" and a notch between bedrails and trailer when driving. We never had an issue so far, whether driving onto a ferry or managing steeper up and downhills in campgrounds.

I expect the new truck to squat a little less when we hitch up, so we either need to lift the trailer by 2" or lower the truck by 2".
The trailer is already in the highest possible position. Only option would be to weld 2" tubes under the frame.
Way easier and cheaper seems to be to lower the truck. There is a 3-4" spacer between the rear axle and the spring pack. Dealer told me it is easy to remove and replace by a smaller one. They have done it a couple of times already. ( Ha! we are not the only ones dealing with that problem)
Research in some truck forums confirms this approach as cheap, easy and having no side effects.

If we don't come across any major concerns, we will go that route and pull the trigger.

Comments, thoughts?
Bernd

The Junkman wrote:

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What happens to the pinion angle when you do that?

How do you lower the front?

You know adding the extended cab and 4x4 increases tow capacity, right?

Not sure, but I think you will find the new ones to squat MORE.. They are a soft ride...With a heavy load .. it drops to level.. thats a bit.. 2-3" maybe?

There are companies that are doing full air ride as well.. ( no springs )

-- Edited by The Junkman on Tuesday 21st of October 2014 08:38:28 PM

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 Steve, 

what is the pinion angle? I am neither tech savvy nor english savvy enough to know what you mean.

Front will not be lowered. Neither of the folks on the forums reporting about their truck lowering experience had lowered the front . Always the rear only. And always 2" +/- 1".

How does the extended cab and 4x4 increase the tow rating? Looking at the specs the manufacturers post higher towing capacities for 2WD compared to 4WD. However, towing capacity is not the issue. Payload is. When we do not tow the fifth wheel, we haul a truck camper. It is a small and relatively lightweight one., still taking our truck's payload  close to the limit when fully loaded. You would be surprised how many people overload their trucks with a slide in camper, either not caring or not knowing.

Maybe I go to the dealership again for a truck squat test. Load 15 people in the truck bed, that will about equal the pin weight and the hitch. That should be fun.

Bernd

Excellent points, Steve.
I get what you say and I am concerned about it. The manufacturers of lowering kits state it will affect the pinion angle, but within the limits.
Looks like the warranty will be voided if the lowering is not done by the dealership. But I will let them do this and get them honor the warranty after lowering in writing.
Lowering kits come as 2/4, 3/5 and 4/6, meaning 2" front, 4" rear and so on. So why not 0/2?
I'll talk to the workshop guys tomorrow. For salespeople anything is a quick fix if they see a chance for a signature. Let's see what the hands on guys say.
Bernd

While not a technical expert on suspensions and the like, it occurs to me that any modification that removes such components to  lower the truck will also lower it's tow rating. Or am I missing something?

As a sidebar, I wonder if there is enough demand for the mfrs to offer an optional bed style... one with shorter bed rails or perhaps a bed type that combines the best of regular PU beds with better towing flexiblity for 5ers. The taller bedrails seems to be a common complaint with newer PUs... are you listening Ford, Dodge and GM?

FWIW, Brian

el Rojo and Pam wrote:

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The Schweitzers on the road wrote:

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update

I expect the new truck to squat a little less when we hitch up, so we either need to lift the trailer by 2" or lower the truck by 2".
The trailer is already in the highest possible position. Only option would be to weld 2" tubes under the frame.
Way easier and cheaper seems to be to lower the truck. There is a 3-4" spacer between the rear axle and the spring pack. Dealer told me it is easy to remove and replace by a smaller one. They have done it a couple of times already. ( Ha! we are not the only ones dealing with that problem)
Research in some truck forums confirms this approach as cheap, easy and having no side effects.

If we don't come across any major concerns, we will go that route and pull the trigger.

Comments, thoughts?
Bernd

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 Bernd, could you provide a link or point me to the truck forums where this is being discussed?

 

Thanks Red

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 well, I googled "lowering 3500 hd", "drop rear of 3500 hd" and such and came across a bunch of sites to dig in:

duramaxforum.com
dieselplace.com
gminsidenews.com
gmfullsize.com
gm-trucks.com

also googled "truck bed too high for fifth wheel" and such and was mostly directed to the known RV forums like irv2.com.

Most of the posts I found relate to lowering kits including drop shackles. The most mentioned product was Belltech.

The dealership would remove the spacer between the axle and the spring pack but not go with the drop shackles. For some reason they do not like the concept. Also depending on how much you want to lower, you may need to remove the overload springs.
Dealership confirmed the warranty would not be affected as long as they do the lowering. Confirmed to provide that in writing.

However, the more I dig into this, the less I like the idea of lowering the truck. We start thinking about a dually now. Would solve all problems. Sits 2" lower compared to the SRW - that's what we need. Provides ample payload and towing capacity. Good news if we were ever to get any bigger toy. If still necessary, lowering would be possible just the same way as with the SRW.
So Friday will be another test drive ...

Bernd

I think you will be much happier with a dually...Don't forget to look at the rear gear ratio and transmission. It make a big difference on GCVW, and towing capacities.

Good luck.

Good morning Red and Glenn,

you both have a GM 3500 dually as TV. Do you know how much the truck squats when you hitch up?
The 2015 3500 dually sits 2" lower than the SRW. If the dually squats 3" or more (we have 2700lbs pin weight) we would be fine gaining the 6" rail clearing we are looking for.

Anyone else with a GM 3500 dually out there who could comment?

Also I would like to let you know that we called Mor/Ryde and asked a few questions about the IS. The benefits by far are worth the price tag I think. We will make Elkhart a destination on one of our next trips. I love to tour factories anyway and there are a few in the area ...

Bernd

The Schweitzers on the road wrote:

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Good morning Red and Glenn,

you both have a GM 3500 dually as TV. Do you know how much the truck squats when you hitch up?
The 2015 3500 dually sits 2" lower than the SRW. If the dually squats 3" or more (we have 2700lbs pin weight) we would be fine gaining the 6" rail clearing we are looking for.

Anyone else with a GM 3500 dually out there who could comment?

Also I would like to let you know that we called Mor/Ryde and asked a few questions about the IS. The benefits by far are worth the price tag I think. We will make Elkhart a destination on one of our next trips. I love to tour factories anyway and there are a few in the area ...

Bernd

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Bernd:

My 2012 3500HD DRW Chevy squats very little and I know my pin weight is a LOT more than yours will be.  But keep this in mind, you want the truck and trailer to run level.  So it would be best to not count on the truck squatting to give you that bed rail clearance.  If you put on the MOR/ryde IS they will make the truck and trailer run spot on and lift the trailer for clearance so this becomes a non-issue.

Having said that, we did add air-bags so I could adjust the truck bed to be perfectly level with the trailer hitched.  We don’t even touch the “helper springs.” By doing this it is a cinch to make everything perfectly level – truck and trailer and give the best ride possible with and without the trailer. The rig just rides as one unit down the road.  Did this with my last trailer as well.  As you said, it is well worth the money if you are going to travel.

Having done a lot of work with MOR/ryde over the years if I can be of additional assistance with the project don’t be afraid to ask.  I would also highly recommend the MOR/ryde pin box to reduce back and forth “chucking.”  It’s an easy retro fit on almost all rigs.  No welding, just bolts and they will give you a package price with the IS if you ask for the "show special."  Gary is good about that.

Bill and Linda wrote:

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The Junkman wrote:

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I think you will be much happier with a dually...Don't forget to look at the rear gear ratio and transmission. It make a big difference on GCVW, and towing capacities.

Good luck.

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Just info: In the case of the GM/Chevy, with the Duramax Diesel and Allison transmission, there is only one gear ratio: 3.76.    Been that way with the Duramax / Allison since introduction in the early 2,000’s.  Having now pulled trailers over 20K all over the western and eastern mountains I can tell you it doesn’t really need a higher ratio.  You would think it would considering the ratings, but it doesn’t.  Engine just doesn’t lug or get hot.  Neither does the tranny – amazing cool. 

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 It would make a difference in tow capacity if they offered it.

I'm sure it pulls great. All duallys do for a 20k rig.. Even if considered overweight.

-- Edited by The Junkman on Thursday 23rd of October 2014 02:58:57 PM

Didn't mean you..Sorry if you took it that way..

Was thinking, with a 20k trailer.. folks running older duallys ( and some new ), must be considered pulling overweight by manufacture standards, since the weights spec'ed are so low. Maybe even a 15k trailer..
So as many say.. there is high percentage of folks running overweight out there.. Good or bad .. How much? how little? I don't know..

Speaking with the dealer... he see's old trucks, small trucks, any truck... coming in and hooking onto a rv.. and away they go..lol Point is.. overweight or not.. many people are doing it everyday..

Also concerning gearing. My wife has to really gun her Impala to keep up with me. That is towing a 21,000# 13' 3" high Teton. Need to know though they have the highest bed sides. I could not level my Teton with stock bed. But my Teton was never intended to be towed with a LDT either so it is built lower to ground. A 7' tall person can step into our bedroom and not bend down. The newer trucks are far superior to what was available in 2003. 3.73 gearing is plenty.

-- Edited by Glenn West on Friday 24th of October 2014 07:01:19 AM

Ratios and tires contribute to final gearing also. Do believe others run taller tires.

biggaRView wrote:

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The Schweitzers on the road wrote:

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...The 2015 3500 dually sits 2" lower than the SRW. If the dually squats 3" or more (we have 2700lbs pin weight) we would be fine gaining the 6" rail clearing we are looking for....

Bernd

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 Just so I understand, are you saying that if the truck "squats" by 3" with a load on it, you gain more bed rail clearance?  I'm not seeing it.  Either you have the 6" or you don't. Not trying to be smartalecky or anything, but maybe I'm not understanding some aspect of the mechanics of bedrail clearance. I've watched trucks hook up to trailers for many years in my previous work assignment, and I have never witnessed some kind of gain in clearance from trailer to tractor from before hook up to after unless they could raise the fifth wheel hitch which many trailer jockeys can do in intermodal yards among other places with a hydraulic hitch lifting device (a convenience to the "spotter drivers" since they do not have to get down to roll up trailer legs). Can somebody explain what appears to be a misconception either on my part or somebody elses.

Thanks, Brian

-- Edited by biggaRView on Thursday 23rd of October 2014 08:19:28 PM

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 Brian, I was referring to a post further up, where I posted some measurements regarding the bedrail clearance. I'm unable to explain the physics behind it, but here are my numbers and conclusions:

first, picture the fifth wheel sitting level on its jacks in a campsite. Now I back my current truck under it as it sits level. (just a few inches to measure the clearance) There is 2.5" clearance between the bedrails of the truck and the bottom of the fifth wheel nose. Now I jack up the fifth wheel and hitch up. (we can not hitch up when the trailer sits level, we have to jack up quite a bit) When retracting the jacks the pin weight pushes the truckbed down for about 4". (the clearance between the bedrails and the fifth wheel doesn't change while going down as you have stated) When the jacks come clear and the pin weight is completely carried by the truck the clearance between the bedrails and the fifth wheel is 6" and a bit. We tow almost level now, maybe half an inch nose high.

With the new truck I want the level to be the same or better.

I testdrove a 3500 SRW and drove it under the fifth wheel. Clearance between bedrails and fifth wheel was 1". So we loose 1.5" right here. I assume that a new truck will squat a little less than my worn 2006er. Say 1/2" less. With that I would expect the hitched up fifth wheel to clear the bedrails by 4". Not good.

Now the measurement of the bedrail top to the ground was 59.5" for the 3500SRW, while I measured 57" for the DRW. The testdrive for the DRW is scheduled for tomorrow. I expect a 3.5" clearance between bedrails and fifth wheel when driving under it. A squat of 3" when putting the pin weight in the bed would (that's what I conclude at least) lead to the 6-6.5" clearance when hitched up. Since the DRW has stronger springs I expect less squat than the SRW. If it is much less we gained nothing overall. If it's only 1/2" less I guess we have found our new truck!

The best way to check the bedrail clearance with the new truck would be to load it with 3000lbs of gravel (simulating hitch and pinweight) and then drive under the level trailer. 6" or more? Good to go. I just doubt the dealership will agree to this test ...

Bernd

-- Edited by The Schweitzers on the road on Thursday 23rd of October 2014 09:37:54 PM

Gm raised their bed bodies around 09 and I could be off a year. Didn't just research it. It has been a problem for a while. My truck has more spring movement than my 05. The empty ride isn't as stiff either. It will drop considerably. Mine was almost level, some rack left, with stock bed. I do have a higher pin than most anyone on here with a LDT. We have over 9k on rear wheels. Look at the upper spring, it is the overloads. On chassis there is a rubber stop. The distance between them is approximately your drop or swat. Will not travel much past that.

el Rojo and Pam wrote:

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The results are in:

When I had the rig weighed the pin weight was 3490 lbs. Since then we added the Mor/ryde king pin and of course we have added and removed items, but I feel the pin weight should within + or - 200 lbs. The 2015 Chevy HD 3500 4X4 Dually dropped exactly 2" with the weight of the trailer.

Bernd I hope that helps.

Red

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Red,

thank you so much for checking this. I appreciate it.
One question though: is the 2" drop with stock suspension or do you have any airbags installed?

While you were measuring the drop when hitching up we had another test drive today with the DRW. Drove it under the trailer and it sits exactly at the same height as our current truck. Now, our current truck squats 4" under the load, while you measured 2" with a heavier load than we will have. This leaves me thinking the bedrail clearance will not be enough on the DRW without lowering the truck or lifting the trailer.

We also learned that the spacer between axle and spring pack is not removable, actually it's welded to the axle. Only the half tons have another removable spacer. The only way to lower the rear of an HD is to install rear drop shackles. These shackles are longer than the stock ones and force the truck bed lower. It is kind of making the truck behave as already loaded with some weight. I got another confirmation from the dealership this is not affecting pinion angle, steering or any other component in a way is would void the warranty or prematurely wear out components (as long as the drop is not more than 2"). They will confirm this in writing in a sales contract.
I measured the distance from overload spring to the rubber bump with 2" (rear) and 1.5" (front) on the DRW and 2.5" (rear) and 2.25" (front) on the SRW. This would suggest a 2" rear drop would just slightly engage the overload spring on a DRW all the time, while there would be a little room left on a SRW.

We will find out more tomorrow. Believe or not, the dealership has agreed to do a side by side a squat test with both the SRW and the DRW. Thirteen sales people and three sales managers (they are the heavyweights) will all together climb into the truck bed and we will measure the bedrail height unloaded and loaded. (At an estimated 180lbs average per person the truck load will be 2880 lbs) This will be fun and we will take pictures. I have to learn how to post pictures here quickly, so we can share this.

Bernd

-- Edited by The Schweitzers on the road on Friday 24th of October 2014 07:41:04 PM

The Schweitzers on the road wrote:

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We will find out more tomorrow. Believe or not, the dealership has agreed to do a side by side a squat test with both the SRW and the DRW. Thirteen sales people and three sales managers (they are the heavyweights) will all together climb into the truck bed and we will measure the bedrail height unloaded and loaded. (At an estimated 180lbs average per person the truck load will be 2880 lbs) This will be fun and we will take pictures. I have to learn how to post pictures here quickly, so we can share this.

Bernd

-- Edited by The Schweitzers on the road on Friday 24th of October 2014 07:41:04 PM

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 Please take some pictures! lol 

 

And as to lowering.. what are you going to do about the shocks? 

And you know if you run on the bumpstops or overload spring .. it will run real hard.. or maybe I didn't understand that? 

 

I need to read this thread over.. I forgot what the issue is..Ride height of the trailer I think..