Had a Recent Plumbing Issue - RV-Dreams Community Forum

Terry and Jo · RV-Dreams Family Member

Had a Recent Plumbing Issue

PIEERE · RV-Dreams Family Member

hmm hmm Isn't it amazing how the factory will install stuff that seems to be made out of inferior materials!!! I looked at your blog and that is exactly how I had to repair water leaks. I am a Yankee; been living in the South mostly since 1980; now I found the proper name for the engineering (rigging) things I will be applying some of it when the weather gets warmer. biggrin biggrin I fear it will go from Winter to Summer real quick as the cold just wants to cling on!!!

igotjam · RV-Dreams Family Member

Our 07 DRV had a bunch of fittings give out as well.......I know the feeling. Not sure how yours is set up but we had a white flexible line on the outlet of the water pump that split down the length of it filling the underbelly. I never could run the sureflo 5.7 as it put out so much pressure (65# I think) that leaks would occur. Switched to a 2088 pump with less pressure and always set the regulator to 40# or less to keep things dry.

Alie and Jims Carrilite · RV-Dreams Family Member

We used PexTite or SeaTech fittings in the yachts we built. Never had a leak that we know of, but we never uses a high psi pump. Usually we used a ParaMax4 by Jabsco, that I believe was 45psi at up to 4 outlets/faucets.

Lucky Mike · RV-Dreams Family Member

I use WISBO lines and Security fittings......less agrivating , cost a little more.

TRAILERKING · RV-Dreams Family Member

Would that be WIRSBO? Never heard of WISBO.

VanMar · RV-Dreams Family Member

Terry,

You have me thinking that I might have to do a pre-emptive strike on the PEX fittings when I get the MS home.

If I remember right, Zurn had a class action lawsuit against them a few years ago regarding faulty two-piece valves. We had one go bad in our last house. We've had three leaks at work over the last three years caused by cracked plastic tee fittings. I always replace them with brass.

I will definitely be taking my PEX tools and a supply of crimp rings with me when we shove off.

Vance

Terry and Jo · RV-Dreams Family Member

Vance,

Since you have all that, take the opportunity when possible to splice in some sections to get yourself some more length on the lines. If it hadn't been so cold here and I'm not good at working in cold anymore, I would have taken the opportunity to add about six inches or so. However, I don't have PEX fittings and I don't even know if the plastic "nuts" used on the hose fittings are a normal component of PEX. I guess I need to study that some and perhaps buy some tools for PEX. Either that or completely replace the PEX fittings.

Terry

MarkS · RV-Dreams Family Member

I do not know of a manufacturer that is not using some form of pex pipe and fitting. The good is that the pipe is typically rated to -15 degrees and the fittings to -30 degrees. It doesn't break as easy as other plastic or copper solutions.

Terry, see if you can find the manufacturer of the fitting. Maybe Nibco or any number of other manufacturers. The seals should not deteriorate. The manufacturer will likely already know of this problem and have a solution for you. DRV may have some knowledge of the problem. The manufacturer probably buys their seals from a seal manufacturer and may have gotten a batch of bad ones. At any rate, they will likely have a solution for you.

Please post the manufacturers name so the rest of us can inspect our units.

-- Edited by MarkS on Monday 3rd of February 2014 09:29:46 AM

-- Edited by MarkS on Monday 3rd of February 2014 09:36:11 AM

TRAILERKING · RV-Dreams Family Member

Could there be an issue with the quality of water? Looks like it's rotting away.

Terry and Jo · RV-Dreams Family Member

Bernie,

I'm not sure I can say that the water quality is bad. We are having no issues with hard water or taste, even though we aren't even needing a filter. However, I might have to look into that.

As for the manufacturer of the fitting, there is nothing on the "nut" at all except the words, "Hand Tighten Only." The material inside that looks like it is rotting looks like cork to me. Now, in all honesty, to see that much, I have to use a magnifying glass to see it well enough to think it is cork. Is that a normal "seal?" The inside of the "nut" appears to be like a flare fitting that tightens against the inside of the NPT on the back of the faucet.

Terry

MarkS · RV-Dreams Family Member

No. It isn't cork. These fittings better be NSF approved since they are in your drinking water. The seals should be some form of flexible PVC and should never break down from use with water. There may be a metal grip washer in the fitting that would dig into the pex when the nut is tightened. This metal should be stainless steel but... I have seen inexpensive fittings made with substandard stainless and when the metal corroded there was a cork like appearance.

If this is the case the only way DRV is at fault is if they bought the cheaper fittings. Not likely, at least not on purpose. It is more likely that the fitting manufacturer used substandard components. If thr fittings were manufactured in China, this is highly likely. I've personally witnessed them taking short cuts. This can happen with an American manufacturer too. The story gets longer at this point.

At any rate, it is apparent that you have a warranty issue. If I were you I would disassemble another fitting and see if it seems to be wider spread. The manufacturer should be happy to replace all your fittings. They probably won't be but they should be.

TRAILERKING · RV-Dreams Family Member

http://www.pexsupply.com/Cash-Acme-23067LF-1-2-x-7-8-Sharkbite-Ball****-Swivel-Toilet-Connection-Elbow-LF

TRAILERKING · RV-Dreams Family Member

1/2" x 7/8" Sharkbite Ball**** Swivel Toilet Connection Elbow (LF) http://www.pexsupply.com/

-- Edited by TRAILERKING on Monday 3rd of February 2014 10:15:35 PM

Bill and Linda · RV-Dreams Family Member

Terry:

This is really weird - seriously. In 7 years we never had a PEX fitting issue in the Escalade. Never had a leak. I just say this because the PEX have been bullet proof for us including using them for some changes I made to make it easier to sanitize the water system. I would think DRV and KZ get their fittings from the same supplier as the factories are less than 20 miles apart. I'm always looking around in the basement area at RV shows and I can't recall not seeing an RV without PEX fittings someplace even if they had some connections with compression fittings. All are metal that I have seen in the RV except for the "hand tighten" nuts as shown in the pix above.

All that said, like Vance, I carry spare PEX fittings, tools and a little pipe with me just in case.

Still - Weird you are having this issue. Guess you are sure you don't have a water pressure issue or you would have mentioned it.

Lucky Mike · RV-Dreams Family Member

Wirsbo & PEX make a security clamp fitting that is Stainless steel these rings hold alot better than the standard type.....unfortunately they also require a special Ratcheting crimper but well worth the investment.

they also sell Brass fittings that are superior to most factory installs..........for an emergency kit tho I would recommend Shark brass fittings so it could be repaired with the least amount of tools Quickly.....IMHO

Replacement tubing I would use Wirsbo......it has an oxygenated barrier with a mesh in the tubing and is almost in destructive.....I used it for outdoor commercial installs in the Northeast and never had to replace it due to freezing or solar breakdown.

Terry and Jo · RV-Dreams Family Member

First of all, it shouldn't be pressure. We have a Watts 263A water pressure regulator set at about 60 psi. I may need to check it again. For the benefit of newer forum participants, here is a blog entry I wrote regarding our Watts regulator.

Review of Watts 263A Water Pressure Regulator

Before we got the Watts, we had issues of leaks at the kitchen and then the bathroom sink where the PEX line attaches to the faucet inlet. In both cases, hand tightening fixed those problems. Recently, we had been discovering some water leaking into the basement area. I would find water that seemed to be running down the water lines and dripping onto the floor of the basement. I've been tightening them some, but fortunately, only had tight. It's been a bit cold to spend much time looking in the basement to see if it has improved. I haven't seen any water drops when I've glanced in there since I replaced this last break.

Considering the tendency of RV manufacturers to install plumbing that may just barely be long enough to reach, I guess I need to research PEX fittings, pipe, and tools and try to learn what I can so that I can do better repairs if more are needed.

Thanks to all for the ideas.

Terry

Terry and Jo · RV-Dreams Family Member

Off topic but it was relevant in this thread, Trailerking tried posting a "lengthy" internet link and for some reason we ended up with three posts that were identical. They were all labeled as "Spam Comment" for some reason, so I deleted two of the duplicates and approved the third one. I mention this so that all might check out the thread in Forum Tips about putting links into a posting. That would likely prevent the "Spam Comment" flag from coming up. I'm not sure but I think that most will not see the "Spam Comment" flagged comments, so Trailerking's last one with an image of the fitting would be all that most would have seen.

Terry

MarkS · RV-Dreams Family Member

Terry,
That regulator, and most of them, only regulate during flow. When you stop the flow the water pressure equalizes to the input pressure. If there is 100 pounds at the input there is 100 pounds throughout the coach. Only when a faucet is on does the pressure drop to the stated pressure on the regulator.

That being said, PEX and your fittings should easily handle more pressure than you will ever encounter. With the possible exception of water hammer, maybe, in a park with already really high pressure.

It is interesting how many have encountered plumbing problems. This might be a good point of routine inspection for all of us. Sharing what we learn will allow us to come up with indicators to look for and simple solutions that any of us can use. Any of us that are inclined to make our own repairs should have a kit to make emergency repairs possible.

TRAILERKING · RV-Dreams Family Member

Terry and Jo wrote:
Off topic but it was relevant in this thread, Trailerking tried posting a "lengthy" internet link and for some reason we ended up with three posts that were identical. They were all labeled as "Spam Comment" for some reason, so I deleted two of the duplicates and approved the third one. I mention this so that all might check out the thread in Forum Tips about putting links into a posting. That would likely prevent the "Spam Comment" flag from coming up. I'm not sure but I think that most will not see the "Spam Comment" flagged comments, so Trailerking's last one with an image of the fitting would be all that most would have seen.
Terry

Oh....That's what happened, I didn't know what was going on. I'd try and "copy/paste" the link and my whole post was gone. After trying a couple times I just gave up and posted the picture.

Hope it helps some anyways.

rv-vagabond · RV-Dreams Community Member

just a suggestion try shark bite fittings. http://www.sharkbiteplumbing.com/

-- Edited by rv-vagabond on Wednesday 5th of February 2014 08:07:37 AM

Bill and Linda · RV-Dreams Family Member

In the opinion department, and this is mine, 60 psi is too high for RV’s. I think 50 is pushing it with all the plastic valves and faucets. I have ours set at 45 and we have plenty of water flow – and no leaks so far. That's about the pressure output from the water pumps in the rigs.

The toilet valves and water tank bypass valves can especially be vulnerable to higher pressures and seepage from higher pressures.

I understand what Mike is saying about the water pressure equalizing to the input pressure when flow stops. But then why doesn’t the pressure gauge on the output of my regulator increase when all flow stops assuming you have a quality regulator? Its always stays at the set level. It will go down with flow, which is to be expected if the input pressure is somewhat anemic, but it never goes above the preset level.

Bill and Linda · RV-Dreams Family Member

Terry and Jo wrote:
Considering the tendency of RV manufacturers to install plumbing that may just barely be long enough to reach, I guess I need to research PEX fittings, pipe, and tools and try to learn what I can so that I can do better repairs if more are needed.

Terry:

I found everything I needed, PEX tool and connector wise, at Lowes. Pipe as well. The basic tools were not that expensive, IMO. You only need one tool to put the clamp rings on and one to take them off. Perhaps a good insurance investment.

MarkS · RV-Dreams Family Member

Bill, what regulator do you have? Most inexpensive regulators are nothing more than, basically a small jet that will only pass so much water, dropping the pressure on the output side. A more active unit could ensure the pressure does not exceed the set amount.

Bill and Linda · RV-Dreams Family Member

MarkS wrote:
Bill, what regulator do you have? Most inexpensive regulators are nothing more than, basically a small jet that will only pass so much water, dropping the pressure on the output side. A more active unit could ensure the pressure does not exceed the set amount.

Don’t recall the brand. But it isn’t one of the spring types that are preset to 45 or 55 psi and are almost useless. It’s a “real” regulator, such as one you would use in a house, that is fully adjustable and the output psi on the gauge follows the setting “screw.” Terry’s should hold the preset psi even with water not flowing.

IMO, those $10 "spring" regulators are not really worth having. But that's just me.

TRAILERKING · RV-Dreams Family Member

Yeah don't be fooled and compare a "Real" regulator to some other cheap gimmicks that are nothing more than a flow restrictor.........Not a regulator. A restrictor will not control pressure but a regulator will.

Alie and Jims Carrilite · RV-Dreams Family Member

If you have a Watts regulator and its passing static water pressure thru, then the diaphragm in it may be leaking. Over time minerals can build up and let pressure thru etc, if its ever frozen this will happen as well. The RV Water Filter Store sells rebuild kits for them. Easy to do with a few simple tools.

Edited after Terry fixed my Link...... again!

-- Edited by Alie and Jims Carrilite on Wednesday 5th of February 2014 08:21:25 PM

Terry and Jo · RV-Dreams Family Member

Alie and Jim,

Your link is bad because it doesn't go to the Water Filter store. I think you are referring to this site:

RV Water Filter Store

Our Watts is adjustable and we bought one that has the stainless steel innards. We bought ours at that location and you can see the selection of regulators at this link:

RV Water Filter Store Pressure Regulators

For the most part, our regulator has been in use for about 2 years or so, so I might need to take a look at it because, for one thing, the guage doesn't "zero" when the water is turned off. So, if nothing else, I probably need a new gauge. It has NOT seemed to be one to allow a surge of water when one opens a valve. At least, not that I've noticed. However, we did freeze up recently because I goofed in how I arranged things in the box over our underground hydrants. So, in addition to the gauge, I probably also need to get the repair kit.

As for the pressure, we previously had a "pressure regulator" that is probably better described as a "flow regulator" that was supposedly designed for 45 psi. At that pressure, our toilet wouldn't even allow flushing all the way around the bowl. At 57 to 60, the toilet works just fine.

Terry

Terry and Jo · RV-Dreams Family Member

Lucky Mike wrote:
Wirsbo & PEX make a security clamp fitting that is Stainless steel these rings hold alot better than the standard type.....unfortunately they also require a special Ratcheting crimper but well worth the investment.

they also sell Brass fittings that are superior to most factory installs..........for an emergency kit tho I would recommend Shark brass fittings so it could be repaired with the least amount of tools Quickly.....IMHO

Replacement tubing I would use Wirsbo......it has an oxygenated barrier with a mesh in the tubing and is almost in destructive.....I used it for outdoor commercial installs in the Northeast and never had to replace it due to freezing or solar breakdown.

I am now researching PEX line and fitting and equipment since my fix blew off the other night. Apparently, I didn't get the hose clamp in the right place or didn't get it tight enough. In fixing things, I may have now cross-threaded the plastic pipe nipple that is the back of the faucets. Looking at Lucky Mike's recommendations above, does anyone have information that shows a "type" of PEX material (line, fittings, etc.) that would be better than the Wirsbo and brass fittings? To my chagrin, I found that there are various forms (a, b, and c) of PEX.

Considering the fact that we've now had two blow-outs, I may look into replacing all the factory installed lines with better stuff.

Thanks for any help you all can provide.

Terry

Alie and Jims Carrilite · RV-Dreams Family Member

Look into the SeaTech fittings www.seatechinc.com/ We used the 35 series.
We used them for years in the marine industry with great success. Not cheap but well worth it.
When we closed down, I saved a few elbows, straight, adapters, etc.

MarkS · RV-Dreams Family Member

Terry,
Sea tech makes excellent fittings. Your problem isn't with the pex pipe itself but, with the fittings. I would suggest that you purchase a crimping tool and the appropriate crimp collars. Personally, I prefer the plastic fittings. However, for best long term performance you must ensure that you have sufficient tubing length so as not to put mechanical stress on the fittings. If the manufacturer has cut the tubing to exact lengths for a faucet or connection that could introduce problems.

I can't stress enough that you should contact DRV (first) and lodge a complaint about these fittings. This is not acceptable performance. DO NOT accept any excuses. Even if they inadvertently used substandard parts, they were the coach manufacturer and have some liability. These are probably Chinese fittings. I do not get a warm fuzzy that they are NSF approved which means they can be made of anything. The NSF or IAPMO logo must be on these fittings for them to be approved. I need to research the standard for brass components. Any coach manufacturer that uses non approved fittings in your drinking water lines is doing nothing more than cutting corners. If this is the case, you just as well run a regular garden hose to your coach. No need to get an NSF approved drinking water hose because the rest of the system is made from recycled unclean plastic. Second, try to find out who the manufacturer of the fittings is. They would be an alternate course of action and if it is an American company they are likely to be helpful even if they just offer to supply you with replacements. I would want to know what is causing these fittings to fail. The photo leads me to substandard components, not installation errors.

A story. We had a line of fittings that were made for pex and PVC. We sourced our stainless grip rings from an American Mfgr. At some point their dies became worn and the grip rings were no longer to tolerance. We had no idea until we received a claim from a plumber that the fittings were blowing off the end of pex tubing. Our first thought was that he was provided with the PVC fittings instead of the pex fittings. Lucky for us, he had a few left and sent a sample to us. Our engineers measured the components and found the problem. It was an expensive recall to say the least. Since the fittings had metal components we could not regrind them and had to drill holes in them to throw them away. From that point on we sampled all metal components and measured them for size. It's amazing the problems .0025 inches can cause.

Terry and Jo · RV-Dreams Family Member

First of all, thanks to Vance and Marla (VanMar) for assisting someone ignorant of PEX fittings and stuff. When they were out here recently, Vance helped with replacing the PEX fittings on both the toilet and the hot water of the shower. Unfortunately, even after doing a replacement, we still had a leak, so Vance again took the time to try to stop that little "seeping" leak at the fittings. I had informed him that I might have cross threaded the plastic threads on the back of the faucet "pipe."

So, Jo and I went and bought a new faucet and a new shower head and hose. (Jo had been wanting to get one of the Oxygenics shower head, one that is designed for low water pressure. We had one in a previous home that was on well water and had low pressure.)

When I went to remove the old faucet, the nut holding the faucet tight against the wall came off of the hot water side with a lot of resistance. That pretty much confirmed to me that I had definitely cross threaded the threads on the old one. We put on the new faucet and shower system and when I re-attached the water lines and turned them on, there was no sign of a "seeping" leak.

So, all you folks learn from the "old codger" and be careful if you have to put fittings back onto a faucet. The biggest issue with all of this was that the water lines to the shower faucet didn't give one a lot of "play" to be sure and get the fittings straight, especially when one has to work back inside of a cabinet where one can get their head in....or their hand....but not both.

Thanks also to everyone here that contributed with ideas and comments. And thanks to Vance and Marla, we now possess some fittings, crimp rings, and a crimping tool. Maybe next time I will be able to do this job myself, although I may have to "practice" a little with the tool and crimp rings first.

Terry

VanMar · RV-Dreams Family Member

Terry and Jo wrote:
We put on the new faucet and shower system and when I re-attached the water lines and turned them on, there was no sign of a "seeping" leak.

Terry,

You're very welcome...glad I could help. And congratulations on a successful repair.

kb0zke · RV-Dreams Family Member

Okay, plumbing experts, how about a thread on what tools to get, what fittings to carry, types of PEX, etc. I'm completely new to PEX, although I've been sweating copper pipes for nearly 50 years.

VanMar · RV-Dreams Family Member

David,

The cinch tool was about $57. The one Terry got has shorter handles than mine which is better for working in close quarters and works just as well. The cutter is about $10 but you can use a utility knife instead. The cutter, though, is necessary when you can only get one hand in the work area. There may be some half inch tubing somewhere in the coach but all I've seen so far is three eighths. A bag of ten cinch-clamps was, I think, $4 or so. The tubing is very inexpensive. Like Terry said, just give yourself some play whenever you can.

Terry and Jo · RV-Dreams Family Member

Just to clarify what Vance spoke of, the cutter is used to cut the plumbing line so one will have a straight cut, making it better when crimping on a new fitting. I'll have to get one of those myself. I "used" to be pretty darn good cutting with a pocket knife, but I've found I'm not as straight as I used to be.

Terry

kb0zke · RV-Dreams Family Member

I never could cut anything straight, so the cutter is a good investment.

I checked the Lowe's website just to see what is available, and found these:
www.lowes.com/pd_151617-61002-69PTKH0015K_0__%3FNtt%3Dpex%2Btools&facetInfo=
www.lowes.com/pd_153571-61002-69PTBJ0010C_0__%3FNtt%3Dpex%2Btools&facetInfo=
www.lowes.com/pd_153553-61002-69PTKG1096_0__%3FNtt%3Dpex%2Btools&facetInfo=
Any preference?

Is this the removal tool? www.lowes.com/pd_158632-61002-69PTKD0009_0__%3FNtt%3Dpex%2Btools&facetInfo=

Didn't find any cutters specifically for PEX. I have both of these already. Will they work?
www.lowes.com/pd_331919-943-35236.STC8_0__%3FNtt%3Dpipe%2Bcutter&facetInfo=
www.lowes.com/pd_332075-943-35078.STC5_0__%3FNtt%3Dpipe%2Bcutter&facetInfo=

VanMar · RV-Dreams Family Member

David,

This cutter is for PVC and PEX.

http://www.lowes.com/pd_131775-16878-43048_0__?productId=3307322&Ntt=pvc+cutter&pl=1&currentURL=%3FNtt%3Dpvc%2Bcutter&facetInfo=

It works great when you can only get one hand in the work area. The multi head tool is for copper crimp rings while the other two tools are for stainless steel cinch rings. I had never seen the one-handed variety but they ,also, look like they would be good for tight spaces. The cinch tools work on all sizes of cinch rings while you would have to change crimp heads for each size of crimp ring.

I actually used a copper tubing cutter on a piece of PVC once...worked pretty good. Not so good on PEX.

Terry and Jo · RV-Dreams Family Member

David,

Those two cutters are generally used on copper tubing. As one turns them around the tubing, one tightens the screw handle to cut just a bit deeper after making a turn or two. Like Vance said, they could be used on small PVC piping, but PVC piping is easier and quicker to cut with a hacksaw.

Terry