How small is too small? :) - RV-Dreams Community Forum

Mark_and_Crystal · RV-Dreams Community Member

How small is too small? :)

Colorado_Kid · RV-Dreams Family Member

If your going to full time than you will need something bigger than a camper. I don't fulltime and when I first strated looking for an RV I considered a Roadtrek. The first time I stepped into a Roadtrek I knew a Class B wouldn't be for me.

Bill Adams · RV-Dreams Family Member

I don't think you are going to be able to tow anything large enough to live in with your minivan so you either need to buy something large enough to tow the van behind or buy something smaller but you will have to have someone drive the van and follow behind. I believe a reasonable sized Class C would allow you to tow but you will have to check the various weight ratings to ensure it can be done safely.
There are many used Class A coaches fully capable of towing the van so the only question is how old does the coach have to be to fit within your budget? Think about what's important and what you must have and then see if you can draw a balance that will fit into your current budget.
Janet and I have been together (close together) for most of our lives as well. We have been traveling full-time since 1997 in a 40' coach with no slides. That less than 300 sf of living space and we could not be happier. It can be done very well in much smaller coaches but your van may be an issue.

Mark_and_Crystal · RV-Dreams Community Member

Thank you!

I think we will have to re-look at things and consider getting rid of the van and figuring something different out. My thought of having the van is the storage it has - we can keep all the photo stuff in it instead of using space in the camper. But it's not necessary to do it that way.

I'll have to think about it and pray about it! :)

Blessings,
Crystal

TheHarveys · RV-Dreams Family Member

Of course, you can always get a different van. There are some 3/4 ton vans on the market that will tow just about any travel trailer you would care to buy. I would not give up on the van idea so soon.

Bill Adams · RV-Dreams Family Member

But can a 3/4 ton van tow a trailer that you would be comfortable full timing in?

Mallo · RV-Dreams Family Member

17 TO 20 Feet may not be enough room for the cats. If the cats are active they need room to move around in we're at 34 feet with two older cats and the space was good even a bit large when we rescued a younger cat (three now) the space got cramped for the cats as they were having to find ways to get along.

Also it's the litter box, the food and water bowls and a scratching post. At least it is for us, then there is storage for their food and their litter and other bits and bobs they need.

Mallo

janni · RV-Dreams Family Member

I have read of people fulltiming in just about every size. We have snowbirded(spent the winters in the south) for 3 years in a 23ft. motorhome. We started our fulltime in it but it was just too small for us. Our fulltime means our home on wheels for life. Make your list of what you need to take along and then decide what you can afford to buy to put it in. We didn't get the perfect set up to begin with .........but we will eventually! Good luck and welcome to RVD.

TxYellowRose · RV-Dreams Family Member

Like others, I have heard of folks full-timing in all sorts of sizes of rigs.

One thing you might keep in mind is that you will be living in your rig, not just going out for the weekend or an extended vacation.

Living. Everything you want/need. Well, okay, everything you need. biggrin Whatever room is left is for what you want!

Another question you might ask yourself is are you going to sell everything or will you be storing items? That may be a factor in the size of rig. If you sell everything, as we did, again - all you've got will be in the rig.

Just a couple of suggestions.

Good luck with whatever you decide and welcome to the RV-Dreams Family!

GlendaLaine · RV-Dreams Community Member

We've been full timing in a 17' molded fiberglass 'egg' (a Casita) for just 2 months now with a 30# dog & 2 cats, but have not regrets at all. We pull the trailer with a 4x4 pickup, but I've wondered about having a van instead of a pickup. I've known photographers doing art fairs & usually they have a lot of booth stuff to carry, so the van won't provide much storage for whatever else you want that won't fit in your trailer. We have the pickup bed with a shell over it STUFFED, so we still need to downsize. We like the small living space tho because, like you, we didn't really use much of our house space, either sat in a recliner or watched TV in bed or went outside, & we're best friends who like being with each other. I love the much smaller space to keep clean, have learned there's very little I really, really need to be comfortable, & plan to 'live' outside our trailer because we've traveled to the most comfortable weather.

~~ Glenda ~~
www.CasitaEscapes.blogspot.com

kb0zke · RV-Dreams Family Member

This summer we heard about a couple that was full-timing in a 12' pickup camper for several years. Then they downsized to a 10' one! I would think that that's a bit too small, but I guess it works for them.

We spent nearly three weeks in our mpg this summer. For most of the time it was just DW, the cat, and me. For several days, though, we also had an adult daughter with us. For two days of the trip, DW was at a convention, so I was in the camper with the cat, and it was cool and sometimes a bit damp out. I had plenty to read, but no real comfortable chair in which to sit. Consider what you will do when the two of you, plus the cat, are stuck inside for a couple of days. That's one of the things we will be looking for in our FT rig.

Yes, a 3/4 ton van can handle a trailer that is large enough if you watch the weight. Don't be snowed by the empty weight. Look at the gross weight and the tongue weight. A 30' Airstream has a gross weight of 10,000 pounds, for example, and would have enough space for you and your cats. Some people are concerned about storage space in them and others say there is plenty. Go look at one with your own stuff in mind and decide for yourself.

Kathy Doin It · RV-Dreams Family Member

We met a couple in a military campground fulltiming in a Jeep Wrangler. They had a tent set up ONLY because the campground had rules against camping in cars.

Another time, we met a couple fulltiming in a Chevy van. Jut last fall, we met a couple in an Airstream Bambi.

All of these folks seemed very content with their choice. Then again, we met a couple fulltiming in a Class C who clearly were not happy with their situation. I imagine a positive attitude has alot to do with whether it can be done. :)

Our first 5th wheel was what we called our "starter" rig. The length was fine - a few feet shorter than our current home - but after living in it for a spell, we learned what we wanted to be more comfortable. After 2 years, we bought our current rig and have now lived in it for nearly 5 years. We are very, very happy with it.

Kathy

Queen · RV-Dreams Community Member

GlendaLaine wrote:
We've been full timing in a 17' molded fiberglass 'egg' (a Casita) for just 2 months now with a 30# dog & 2 cats, but have not regrets at all. We pull the trailer with a 4x4 pickup, but I've wondered about having a van instead of a pickup. I've known photographers doing art fairs & usually they have a lot of booth stuff to carry, so the van won't provide much storage for whatever else you want that won't fit in your trailer. We have the pickup bed with a shell over it STUFFED, so we still need to downsize. We like the small living space tho because, like you, we didn't really use much of our house space, either sat in a recliner or watched TV in bed or went outside, & we're best friends who like being with each other. I love the much smaller space to keep clean, have learned there's very little I really, really need to be comfortable, & plan to 'live' outside our trailer because we've traveled to the most comfortable weather.

~~ Glenda ~~
www.CasitaEscapes.blogspot.com

We met a couple just starting out in their Casita recently, what a great rig!!

Love your blog too.

We2RV · RV-Dreams Community Member

It all depends on the amount of stuff you carry. We have been doing Art festivals and craft fairs for over 25 years and have had all the configurations from pick-up trucks with shell to various cargo trailers and vans. We have found the van to be the most versatile with the most room and access. We also traveled with a small trailer some years ago (24" Komfort) and found that the pets seem to require more room than we do.
They really hog the best places and bed. We have a 10" square booth canopy with adjustable sides that is real handy for expanding your private outside area when the space area allows. Good luck with your adventure.

Luvglass · RV-Dreams Family Member

As many people have mentioned, you will find some folks living in all sizes of rigs. There is no right answer, what's good for me is too small for some and way too large for others. Only you can decide what's right for you. And also keep in mind that whatever you decide is changeable if it turns out to be wrong over time.

Good luck,

Delaine and Lindy · RV-Dreams Family Member

It depends on the person. We bougth a 28' 5th wheel and less than 30 days we had traded up to a 34' 5th wheel. We are now after 6 different 5th wheels, we now are were we should be. We are in a 2010 Mobile Suites (Special ordered with many changes) and pulled by a Chevy 3500HD DRW's. We just down sized from a Freightliner M2. Delaine and I are very seldom apart. However last week Delaine flew back to Tennessee for her Dr's appointment, I was home alone, that want happen again. Next year I will go with her.

Everyone has different wants and needs. I highly recomend you do research, and buy you RV first, and if its a towed type RV Tag along or 5th wheel you can match the Truck to the RV.

Its much cheaper to get it right the first time... We have a little over 400sq feet in the Suties. Our stick house is 1258 sq feet and it actually to large in our opinion. We have wished many times that we hadn't quit full timing. And will more than likely sell again. A house is just a big costly anchor.. Good Luck with your choice... Happy Trails...

P.S. Research, Research you can't do to much. I also recomend if you can go to Ind. Goshen, Elkhart, Howe area and do many factory tours.. There you will in fact see there are differences in RV's....

Sushidog · RV-Dreams Family Member

Most minivans have a 3,500 tow limit, so if that is your intended TV, then that will be your limiting factor. Also, when towing at or near your tow limit I suggest that you reduce the frontal area of the trailer to reduce aerodynamic drag. Assuming you want hard sides, for obvious reasons, this excludes traditional cloth sided pop-ups. This limits you to basically 2 types of trailers, a Trailmanor or an A-frame.

Here's a few links:

This is for the new Trailmanor 19rd (2,140lbs dry weight)
http://www.trailmanor.com/WebDocs/sport-deck/sportdeckhome.html

This 2720Sl (or SD) Trailmanor has much more room and a dry weight of 2865lbs.
http://www.trailmanor.com/WebDocs/Showroom/BuildRV/Build2720SL.htm

Here's a link to the ChaletXL series of A-frames (they usually weigh around 2,500 lbs):
http://www.chaletrv.com/folding_xl_plans.php

DW and I originally considered a ChaletXL 1935 or 1938 to be pulled with a minivan, but later decided it would be just too small for our needs for more than a few months of FT use.

If price were not a consideration, we would probably go with a new Ford 150 ecoboost towing a Crossroads Slingshot such as this: http://www.crossroadsrv.com/slingshot/floorplan_detail.asp?fp=GT27RB&type=tt

However I think we will ultimately go with a good used HD 3/4 ton truck towing something such as this: http://www.pecocamping.com/2010-forest-river-salem-le-30-fkbs-GA-i111886

Good luck with your decision,

Chip

EelKat · RV-Dreams Community Member

Mark_and_Crystal wrote:
My question is - how small is too small?

I meet a guy once who lived fulltime out of a tiny pop-up that he pulled with a motorcycle. Twice I have meet people who were "fulltime backpackers" - lived out of a tiny tent-trailer pulled by a bicycle! I don't think you can get much smaller than that! LOL!

I know their is a couple who make a YouTube "show" of how-tos for full timers, and they (and their dog) live fulltime in a pop-up towed by a jeep. They downsized several times each rrig progresivly smaller.

Myself - I'm currently fultiming in a Volvo 240, bought it Dec 2006, lived in it ever since, though I spend little time actually in it, and most nights I sleep in a sleeping bag under a "tent" made out of a 8x6 tarp strung up between trees. If it was just me, I'd keep right on doing this. But I have 12 cats, and a giant comic book collection currently in storage. The cats need a "house" and I need to get rid of the storage unit, so I need something big enough for that, only my brain works funny and I'm a bit slow to figure out things like - how big or how small an RV is, so it took me 5 years to figure out what it was I actually needed! LOL! So I'm upgrading to a 30' Class A motorhome this fall, will be towing the Volvo and will very likely continue to sleep outside in a sleeping bag, just because I like doing that.

Okay, as you are just getting started, and I only just got started a year ago, I'll tell you how it is I went from knowing nothing to knowing, well, a little of something, and what my thoughts were first time stepping into an RV...

Initially I planned on a travel trailer. I was ready to go. I had read about the TAB, a lightweight 15' fiberglass teardrop trailer, so lightweight that even a motorcycle could tow it (or so they claimed). It was designed to be towed by a VW New Beetle and any car of similar size could tow it. My Volvo has (or so I had at first thought) a towing compacity of 4,400lbs and the TAB only weighed 3,000lbs. I since learned that my Volvo in it's present condition - 30 years old and not running to good - would have a hard time towing 2,000 without wrecking the transmission. But at the time I didn't know this so I was ready to rush out and buy the first TAB I saw and set out with it behind my Volvo.

I thought it's just me, I can live in a 15' teardrop no problem.

Than I went inside one. And than I remembered - hey wait, what about the cats? I have 12 cats. I can fit in here, but the cats won't. Wait, what about my comic book collection? I may be getting rid of everything else when I move into the motorhome, but I'm keeping the comic books... not a thing to wink an eye at - this collection stands at 6' tall and 12' across - it is BIGGER than a 15' teardrop trailer!

Why do I keep the things I keep? People ask me all the time: why of all the things I have, why the heck was it the single largest item I owned (a massive comic book collection) that I decided to keep after moving into an RV? Why this? Couldn't I have kept something smaller? Well, let's see...this isn't some ideal collection that sits on display - I actually read these books, over and over and over and over again - every single day. It's not like I'm taking something with me, that I'm never going to use! And the comic books are, part of a Guinness World Record attempt - I am currently in second place, for having the most complete collect of Uncle Scrooge McDuck comic books ever compiled, and includes a COMPLETE run of EVERY French and German language Scrooge comic ever made, and a near complete collect run of English language editions, and has large potions of several other languages as well, and includes a copy of the rarest Scrooge book in existence: a banned Italian story in which he and Goldie had a baby, and of which fewer than 100 copies are known to exist world wide. I started this collection when I was 4 years old. I love Disney Ducks: Donald, Daisy, Flinty, Gladestone, VonDrake, the whole gang, but I esp love Uncle Scrooge, to the point that I am also a CosPlayer of both the crazy millionaire Yukon gold miser Scrooge McDuck himself and his salon gal girlfriend Glittering Goldie. My favorite book ever written is "King of the Klondike" which I own every edition ever published and have autographed copies of it. It does not end with comic books: I have the toys, the dolls, the stuffed animals, the DVDs of the TV series and movies, books, collectables, you name it if Scrooge is on it, I have it. I even hunted down a 1849 beaver skin top hat, just so I could have one that was authentically the correct year as the one he wears.

Obsession? Yes. And though it takes up nearly every free space I have, this collection stays with me. I infuriate other comic book collectors, by reading and reading every issue, rather than keeping them locked away in vacuum sealed bags; have some hugely rare issues, and other collectors rant brimstone and damnation at me for actively reading them. But the fact remains: I did not start this collection just for the sake of doing so, I do not as other comic collectors do, look as these books as an investment, I will never sell them, I love these books, I love their stories, I've read most of them to the point of having them memorized. I enjoy this collection, because it brings me great happiness to read the stories within the pages of these books. I read them every day, every night. And so no matter how large this collection gets, and how very little room I have left over in the RV as a result, these books stay with me, every where I go. Because these books were in fact kept bagged and boarded and locked in sealed plastic boxes, they miraculously survive the flood when not much else did.

This ain't no small collection: the stack of boxes stands 6 feet tall, 2 feet wide, and 12 feet long. Nope there was NO WAY my comic books would fit in a 15' teardrop, and even if 1 cat would (which it wouldn't) there was no way 12 cats would. So I had to do some major rethinking of what exactly it was I NEEDED for living space.

But than something else occurred to me while I was looking at the 15' teardrop trailer: NO KITCHEN! A one burner propane thingy and a tiny ice box that'd be hard pressed to hold a gallon of milk! I cook. I cook a lot. I bake pies and cakes and cookie and casseroles - where is the oven? I saute with a giant wok - no way that pan'll fit on the tiny propane burner. Hey, no counters, where am I gonna cook?

I kept looking around and than I noticed - wait: No toilet! No sink! No shower! Than it occurred to me why this model was so lightweight that it could be pulled by a car (not a truck) - no water tanks!

Okay, a shower I can do without, it's easy enough to find public ones. A sink, well, I can use whipes on the road and wash at rest rooms. No biggie. Lack of a toilet though? Uhm...yeah, problem...I have an over active bladder. I need to stop and pee like every half our. I've been a Part-Timer for some 20+ years, so I know from experience that finding a toilet on the road WHEN you need it, is rarely easy. No, regardless of anything else, my RV MUST have a toilet - this is not an option!

But than I started thinking more about the cats. I forgot to include their stuff. Heck, the cats have more stuff to bring than I do! Cat toys, litter box (huge box - 12 cats, remember?), cat tree, cat beds, crates, a screen house so they can have a "fenced in" yard to go outside (heck, that's bigger than the trailer!), etc, etc, etc,...

Okay, so now I had to rethink: How much space do 12 cats need? Where is the 5'x3' litter box gonna go? Wait they need their 5' carpeted cat tree, where am I gonna put that? What about my rabid cooking hobby? I need a place to cook. Do I really need a queen size bed? Heck I'm sleeping on the ground in a sleeping bag now, do I really even need a bed at all? Where are the books going to go (and how the heck much do they weigh? Even if they do fit, books are heavy - French Disney comics are 11"x8" and 400pages per issue, they must weigh a good 2lbs per issue and I've got 537 issues like that!) The more I looked around at the inside of that trailer, the more questions I had spinning around in my head, and the more I realized I REALLY needed to rethink what it was I was doing, because I WAS NOT ready to buy an RV much less move into it!

Okay - teardrop trailer crossed off the list, now what?

My next step was to write up a list: Absolutely every single item I would be taking with me, and how much those items weighed. A list of things I NEEDED, a list of things I WANTED and WOULD NOT leave behind and a list of things I WANTED but could leave behind if I had too.

WOW! You don't know how much STUFF you own until you start sorting through and and figuring out what stays and what goes! LOL! Thankfully I was able to decide that I pretty much did not need to keep any of it.

Outside of the comic books and the cats, everything else I plan to take with me will fit in one chest of drawers. I have successfully gotten rid of everything else, or am in the process of doing so. The only things going with me are a few clothing items I need, a few pots/pans/dishes/cups that I'll need, my computer, my sewing machine, and a box of sewing/painting/photography supplies. (It sounds like a lot, but the things are small and few and take up less than 3 square feet when piled in a stack). So it's just the 12 cats and 7,000+ comic books that are causing space issues.

For a while I looked at various travel trailers and 5th wheels and considered getting a truck instead of my tiny 30 year old (losing pieces as it drives down the road) Volvo. But one day a salesman had the forthought to ask me what my travel plans were and if I was taking anyone with me. Yes. I'm taking 12 cats with me. Ah. Somrthing I never considered was brought to my attention... the fact that it is illegal to have cats in a trailer....hmmm...this took quiet a bit of explaining to do, but in the end, the law actually made since and now, thanks to state ans federal laws regarding cats in trailers, I crossed all tow behind RVs off my list and focused my attention on motorhomes instead.

For about a year I was all set to buy a 26' Mico-Mini Class C of the Toyota Dolphin size. I planned and theorized for a year, than all set to head out and buy, I finally started looking at them. Dolphins, Marlins, Mini-Winnies...

*sigh*

I did it again. I miscalculated the extreme lack of headroom in a mico-mini. I'm a bit tall and I do not plan to spend the rest of my life standing either bent over or with my head twisted to the side. Besides, what was I thinking? No way the cats or comics are going to fit in this thing. Micro-minis got scratched off the list.

So off to rethink things again, I finally found (and tried out) the PERFECT motorhome: a 31' Winnebago Access 31J Class C motorhome. I could take out the back bed and turn the bedroom into a cat room and comic storage area, and sleep on the bunk beds in the side. It had everything I needed: space, storage, florrplan... The clincher? The $79,000 price tag. It was waaaay outside of my price range. I really needed to stay as far under $5,000 as possible. And being a brand new model - it'll be 10 or 12 years before they come down that much in price.

In the end I came to the conclusion that I not only needed a 31' Class A motorhome, but I needed a very specific floorplan to accommodate the cats and the comic books without overloading or overcrowding the RV. I also concluded that after 2 years of in and out of every motorhome in the state of Maine - I preferred the motorhomes made in the 1980s. I'm not sure what the difference is, but the 1980's Class As just "feel right" to me when I walk around inside them. Its like this weird zen connection thing, I can't describe, but it's like I feel more comfortable, more relaxed, more at peace, more at home in a 1980s Class A. And so it was finally decided: A $3,000 1988 31' Georgie Boy TravelMaster was the perfect motorhome for me.

I wasted almost 2 years "planning" on what RV to buy, by looking ONLY at RVs online. I thought I "knew" what I wanted, what I needed - turns out after actually setting foot in a REAL RV I had no idea what I wanted or needed and had greatly miscalculated the size and floorplans!

I could have saved myself a whole year of wasted planning, if I had just gone out and looked at the actual RVs in person to begin with. I spent way too much time looking at them online and as I learned there is a big difference between what you see online and actually standing inside the machine itself!

My advice: BEFORE you get your plans going to much, go to a local RV dealer and take a walk through tour of EVERYTHING they have on the lot, from the big to the small to the old to the new. Don't worry about price at this point. Tell the salesman up front you want to start fulltiming NEXT YEAR and you are not sure what type of RC you want yet - they hear this a lot and if they know you are not buying TODAY they'll back off and let you roam around the lot without pestering you to buy, buy, buy.

It's the only way you are going to know for sure what size, Class, type, and floorplan RV is right for you!

I kept thinking too small for my needs. I kept thinking, small is good, small is great, I can do small...yep, I can do small, but there is such a thing as too small, too.

On the other side of the fence of course is too big. There are some motorhomes that I would just plain not feel comfortable driving... a 41' Class A desil pusher, a bus conversion, a 5th wheel... in fact any RV over 31' is on my "too big" list. Sure, they are great inside and loads of living space and all, but you got to take this thing out on the road and really, I just am not comfortable behind the wheel of something that big. Who knows, maybe someday I will be, but at this point in my life, the big rigs are crossed off my list as well.

Mark_and_Crystal wrote:
We do not have children. We do have 2 cats who will be traveling with us so we'd need a little space for their box.

You remember I mentioned back there, the fact that it was because of a law forbidding cats from being in trailers, that got tow behinds crossed off my options list? Seeing how you have 2 cats and are planning to buy a trailer, I'll explain the law as it was explained to me.

I have 12 cats. When I started out I had 14, but 2 have since died. All but 4 are 7+ years old, with the oldest being 15. All started out in life as feral cats. I used to run a feral cat rescue/shelter, these are the cats "left over" from that. I used to live on a farm which doubled as an animal rescue and at any given time we had 500+ animals from cats to dogs to roosters to horses and everything in between. The area I specialized in was feral cats. This was my full time "job" for over 20 years and than in 2006 in the blink of an eye everything was gone, when a flood came through and took out everything. This event left me and a lot of animals homeless. I lived under a 6x8-tarp and most of the animals found emergancy homes. Because I have Autism finding a "regular" job has been next to impossible and becoming homeless made it that much harder. In the end after the flood it was me 2 dogs and 9 disabled feral cats (blind/deaf/etc) living under that tarp.

At first I worried about them running off, us living in a make shift tent-thing, but they stayed right with me and burrowed down into the sleeping bag with me, which was good for all of us seeing how we lived under that tarp through 3 blizzards. (It's not exactly warm or dry in Maine and winters on the shoreline, where we happen to be, can reach -48F in winter.) I often see a lot of people worrying about their cats in an RV because of the heat, but where we live we have to worry about the cold instead. Travel was not our RV goal, getting a warm, dry roof over our heads was.

Originally I had planned to rebuild, but my Autism and having never gone to school and knowing more about cats than people and laws, caused me to not take into consideration that it was going to cost some $2million dollars to rebuild my great-grandparents farm, and so those plans slowly faded and trying to find a way to get in a house on a less than minimum wage income. A tent was the only solution for a while, than I got a car and we lived in that. Than I realized I could get a cheap RV off Craigslist and have a roof over my head again, but by that time it was now me and 14 cats.

Anyways, in looking for a motorhome, I I explained, my plans changed a lot over the last 5 years, and it is because of the cats, and the law about cats (and dogs) in a trailer, and I will tell you about it.

The law REQUIRES, that NO LIVING BEING, human, cat, dog, bird, or otherwise, be INSIDE the trailer/5thwheel while it is being towed. ALL LIVING BEINGS, humans, cats, dogs, birds, or otherwise MUST be inside to tow vehical while the vehicals aremoving. The law farther states that pets MUST be restrained and IN A CRATE while the vehicle is moving. Even in a motorhome the law says the pets must be crated AND the crates bolted down or othwise sucurred.

The reasons being that a trailer in tow, sends stuff flying around, fridge doors open and toss glass jars on the floor, a cat asleep on your bed could get tossed out the window when you turn a corner, or killed by a flying jar of pickles. In the tow truck, a lose cat could jump in the driver's face or jump on the peddles or leap out a window, in either case causing an accident and possibly death. Likewise a crate with a pet inside could become airborn if not bolted down, and you stop at your next rest stop to find an unside down crate in the back room, with a dead cat inside.

Hmmm. Good points. This law has a logical reasoning.

These are very good points and things I had not thought to think about, but very important things to consider when traveling with cats. The safety of the cats must be considered, along with the safety of the people and the safety of other cars on the road. It seems I had much more to learn about RVing and I was not yet ready to buy one, not until I had down so heavy rethinking on how this move was going to be done safetly with 12 cats.

Now, I'm not saying you can not get a trailer. You only have 2 cats and moving them into crates and into your mini-van is probably no big deal. But me? I have 12 cats...how the heck am I going to get 12 crates into the cab of a truck? Simple answer: I'm not! So for me, a trailer was just out of the question.

Crating cats is something you will have to consider with a 5th wheel or travel trailer, something to think about. I will tell you, my experience with crating cats for car rides, esp feral cats, which I have done for 20+ years and with over 250 feral cats, has told me NEVER crate a single cat alone by itself in a crate. The reason is, feral cats tend to live in small packs in the wild with 4 to 6 cats staying together in a den/log/tree/trash-can/shed/etc. The litters grow up, move out and stay together, and when you adopt a feral cat all hell breaks lose if you can not adopt the whole family group. Taming a feral cat can take up to 3 years, yet taming a group of 4 to 6 feral cats can take only a few weeks. The difference? The single cat has been separated from it's family group, it is scared of people to begin with, but a people capturing it and breaking up it's family traumatizes it beyond comprehension and it now views people as predators. Anyone whose had a cat knows that cats form close bonds to their "family" wither that family is their owners, or other family pets, a cat NEEDS the family it knows and trusts and feral cats are no different.

Now you are dealing with domesticated cats, so it'll be different for you than me. It is important to remember that feral cats ARE NOT strays. A stray cat is a domestic cat that became lost, or is the kitten of a domestic cat which grew up in the wild. A feral cat was NEVER a stray nor a domestic cat. Only 1 in every 30 or so feral cats will EVER tame down enough to be considered adoptable as a house pet. Taking a truly feral cat into your home is like taking a wild bobcat into your home, it is no different. Feral cats are very dangerous, they can and will kill other cats, small dogs, rabbits, and birds you already have, if they were not properly tamed prior to coming to you. These cats have never seen cat food or litter boxes, they killed to survive, they grew up fighting skunks, coons, and coyotes. These cats live by the belief it's kill or be killed so it tries to kill every thing it sees, humans included. A truly feral cat, is not a stray cat, nor a domesticated cat - they are a wild cat, born wild to a wild cat, who was also born wild. Often you can have 10 or 20 generations all born in the wild, and that kind of blood line makes them even harder to tame. The cats I deal with are this type - they are not the kittens of a former stray, they are the multi-great-great-great grand-babies of cats that were wild since the 1960s, meaning their is no instinct for domestication at all. As adults, each litter of kittens lives together for their entire adult lives. If you are dealing with a truly feral cat, and not a stray cat, than you do have to take your cats past history into consideration when moving it into an RV with you. Feral cats do not have the same expectations as strays or domestic cats and can not be expected to respond as a stray or domestic cat would. Dealing with feral cats straight from the wild is dangerous. I deal with feral cats straight from the wild. I deal with feral cats who can never become house pets. So, you have to keep that in mind here, because my cats and how I have to deal with them is different from the standard domestic cats which you are dealing with. So for me, my options are much more limited than for someone with less cats and with domesticated cats.

Anyways...

When I first started looking at RVs, I planned on getting a travel trailer. One day, I was asked "So what do you plan to do with it?" I explained my situation and the need for me and the cats to have a place to live after the flood. The next question was: "How are you gonna fit 14 cats in the cab of a truck?" (I had 14 at the time).... Wait... what? Why would I do that? Than I was told about THE LAW...the law which makes it ILLEGAL to have a living being (human or animal) riding in a trailer while on the road...the cats MUST BY LAW be up front in the truck while on the road! Okay...I'm glad some one told me about this BEFORE I bought the travel trailer! You see, there is just no way, I can crate 14 cats in the cab of a truck!

Years of experience has taught me that when trying to get a feral cat in a crate and in a car, keep the ENTIRE FAMILY UNIT (in my case 12 cats) in ONE single crate. But as no crate is big enough I have 3 large dog crates and 4 cats go in each. One cate alone, each in separate crates the cats scream, hiss, howl, claw, chew the bars, lash out, vomit, diarrhea, have convulsions, chew their paws and tail off, hyperventilate, pass out, have strokes, and/or have heart attacks. These are panic attacks triggered by separation anxiety. Cats have a high need for a strong and permanent family unit. Separating a family unit (giving up a cat or two) can result in ALL of the cats throwing major tantrums and becoming unconsolable. In extreme cases a cat once in a family unit, but now an "only cat" may stop eating and starve itself to death. When this happens the only cure is to reunite the cat to it's family unit. Just a few minutes alone in a carte is enough to convince the cat that the rest of the family unit is dead and will never be seen again, thus resulting in a panic attack. (Domestic cats are more used to humans and seem less likely to do this, as they do not rely on the family unit so much as ferals do.)

Years of experience has also taught me that getting a big dog crate (large enough to fit 6 cats or one full grown great dane in it, and putting the ENTIRE cat family into the crate, results in a big ball of cats wrapped around each other at the back of the crate, huddled together and scared, but licking and comforting each other and not throwing tantrums and hurting themselves. They are scared of their situation, but they are together and they are not panicking. They are not feeling threatened, by separation. They feel safe together. Often they will curl up and purr themselves to sleep.

Domestic cats are raised differently than ferals, they are often left alone in the house when their people are at work, they are often alone in a crate on the way to the vet. But ferals are NEVER alone. The pack stays together, sleeps together, hunts together, mother cats nurse each others kits, when kits are born all the females in the litter raise all the kits together. From the time they are born til the day they die feral cats live in family groups and are never alone, and this is something you must take into consideration, esp when traveling. Traveling causes anxiety. Being separated from their family unit causes anxiety. Both events happening at once causes major panic attacks and often serious injuries both to the cat and the people.

It is precisely because my cats are all feral cats, and because I had 12 cats to deal with, that I crossed travel trailers and 5th wheels off of my list and started searching for a motorhome instead. I know these cats, and I know there is no way they are going to deal with being crated in a truck every few weeks. They do okay riding in the back seat of a car uncrated, fears of being in a moving vehicle is not a problem for them, they lay on the seat and purr and are oblivious to the fact that the car is moving. Being in a crate in a car, they do not like however.

So, like I said my situation is a bit unique and requires a bit more thought and planning, but still, anyone traveling with cats is going to have to think about all the things that could effect their cat's health and safety. Most people have no trouble at all with their cats in an RV, but than again, most people only have 2 cats.

How well, well your cats adjust to the RV at all? A lot depends on your particular cats. Are they domestic, stray, or feral? How long have they been domesticated? How long were they ferals? There's a big difference between adopting a 6 month old feral cats and a 6 year old feral cat. The 6 month old feral would be easy to tame and get used to crating and car rides. The 6 year old feral may never become hand-tame and may never be able to ride in a crate or car. Each cat is different.

Personalities and temperaments vary widely. It is quite possible your cats will adjust to the whole moving in and out of the truck fine with no problems at all. Some cats enjoy such things. My cats I how now - no way! I once had a deaf cat that was like a puppy, she loved car rides and couldn't wait to get in the car. I've had several that acting like rabid coons at the sight of a car. Most cats are somewhere in between. Look at your cats and do a few test runs down the street and back and see what they do, than adjust accordingly. If your cats become holy terrors you may have to think about trading the 5th wheel for a motorhome. These are things cat owners have to think about before setting off in an RV. These were things I had to think about.

My biggest worry about moving the cats from the trailer to the truck and back again, is not so much the ride itself, as the fact that they (my cats at least) are exceptionally smart when it comes to safe-breaking and getting the latch of the crates unhooked and suddenly I'm spending the next 3 or 4 days hunting down a cat that started running and didn't stop for a mile or two later! Mittens, Bela, Cleo, and Emily all do this. In doors they are fine. In the car they are fine. In the motorhome they are fine. Outdoors as soon as their feet hit the ground they just start running and don't stop. Pip, Kit, Herbie, and Mowglie also run, but will stop and come back on their own. George and Dog just calmly sit on the ground and never leave my side. The rest run up trees! One cat escaping during transfer from truck to trailer would be hellish, and several cats escaping would be a total nightmare. I decided after giving it much thought and knowing how my cats act, that a motorhome will be a safer option than a trailer for me and my cats.

Also, when getting an RV, I recommend to move the cats into it straight away, but than not move the moterhome for several weeks to give the cats time to get used to their new home, so that they won't be as scared when their home starts up and drives away. I did this with my car too and found that if you let the cats lounge around in the car for a few weeks while it's parked in the drive way, they are not so scared when one day the car is driving down the road. It's not the fact that the car is moving that scares them so much as the fact that they do not know the car itself. Letting a cat get used to the vehicle before they go for a ride in it goes a long way to having happier travels with your cat.

Also, keeping the cat carriers in your house/RV open, and letting the cats come and go freely from them every day, helps as well. Cats can see the crate as a cozy safe den to sleep in or they can see it as a terrifying prison to escape from. If they can sleep in it at will, it becomes a safe haven. If they get locked in every time they step inside, they see it as a prison. I keep my crates open at all times - doors removed, and the cats often sleep in them during the day. This makes it VERY easy to get the cat in the crate once the doors are back on, and helps lessen the stress of travel, because the cat is in a place it knows and feels safe in, to begin with.

Getting the cats used to the vehicle is important. If they only go traveling to get poked by a vet, they will think ALL travel is to go to places that hurt them. Just taking a drive to the beach, once a week will do wonders. Or if your cat allows it, put on his leash and harness and drive to a local nature walk trail and take him for walks every week. (I've only had a few cats that would do this, most dislike leash walking.) My Utopia did this. I used to take him to the beach (which was a mile away) and he'd go for long walks and sometimes I'd take him to the woods on hiking trips. Utopia (who was a blind albino) loved going for car rides because it meant going someplace fun. He acted more like a dog than a cat.

In any case, in my own situation, I don't plan to move the RV very often, (as it was replacing a house lost in a flood, and is not bought as part of any travel plans) so traveling with the cats is not too big of a worry for me, as I have the land to live on and park it, just no house to live in as that got taken away by a flood, so I am full-timing but not really traveling much at all, but I will have to move it once in a while, and personally, in my case, I feel having a motorhome over a trailer is just easier for me and my cats. I also have the advantage of these cats have had many, many, many car rides the past 5 years, seeing how we lived in a car together between the tent so they have been "conditioned" to knowing their is more to car trips than vets. They like watching out windows, laying in the sun, and sleeping to the vibrations of a moving car, so moving them into a motorhome was much easier now than it would have been 5 years ago. It does take time for cats to get used to being inside a moving vehicle. You'll just have to look at all possible things that could go wrong a decide for yourself what is best for you and your cats.

Because of my special situation, I require a special motorhome. As I said, I have 12 cats. All ferals. The oldest is 15 years old, the youngest are under a year old. Most are between 7 and 12 years old. None of them found homes with people for various reasons: blind, deaf, 3 legs, kidney failure, bladder disorders, horribly scarred, deformed, and one that thinks he's a man eating lion and refuses to be tamed. These cats are hard for most people to love. They are cats that most shelters would have put down. They are cats that require several hours of special care each and every day. They require special diets, each different. Feeding them is a 2 hour chore. They are each special needs cats, making them unadoptable to begin with, and the fact that they are ferals in addition to being special needs, makes them a full time job to care for.

When I FINALLY went looking for an RV (after all those years of having the keep rethinking things over and over again) I laid down some very specific requirements for myself because of my cats:

The motorhome had to be no less than 30' long. It MUST have a bedroom in the back and there MUST be a walk through bath room with a door separating the back bedroom from the rest of the motorhome. Why? Because even in a motorhome while on the road the cats will have to be crated if there is no way to prevent them from being in the ****pit. THIS IS A LAW. Less crating time is better, and so, a back bedroom with a door is required. The door shut while on the road, and while parked the cats have free range of the place. Letting the cats roam while driving; I don't know about the other states, but in Maine that is illegal and your pet has to be "confined". "Confined" can mean in a seat belt harness, in a carrier/crate, a wire cage put up across the back of the driver's seat, or if you have a door which separates the back of your motor from the front of your motor home, the cats have to be behind the door and the door locked. Whatever you do, the cat CAN NOT have access to the **** pit (driver's seat, passenger's seat, and dash board WHILE THE CAR IS IN MOTION.) The cat could get in your face, on the steering wheel, jump out the window, or worst of all get under the gas/brake pedals and cause an accident. Thus the reason I required this back bedroom floor plan.

This back bedroom, will not stay a bedroom. First thing I will do is rip the bed out, and put a small twin size bunk-bed instead...not for me, but for the cats. Their carpeted jungle gym cat trees needed to be moved in and bolted to the floor, as well hanging the chicken coop wall hung nests (EZ-coops). I use hen nests because they make deep caves/dens up off the ground are are similar to the den conditions these cats lived in when they were wild and living in hollow trees in the woods. (It has proved easier to tame feral cats, if you recreate living conditions similar to what they had in the wild, and my cats came from a deep wooded area behind a campground where they scavenged RVs for food... meaning my cats in particular are also used to being around RVs and campgrounds as well... I started out rescuing feral cats from the neighboring campgrounds, that's how I got into feral cat rescue to begin with.)

But yeah, so a lot of this cat stuff may not be relavant to you, but, I thought I'd throw it out there, maybe it'll help you out.

Mark_and_Crystal wrote:
We do need to keep the minivan as hubby is a photographer and does art shows - all of his show supplies and inventory fit in the back of the van (thus we do not need space for that!).

Ah...I can relate to this. I too am a photographer, and I am an author and a doll maker and I am also an artist/painter, so I have equipent concerns which involve: photography equiptment, paints, brushes, canvases, a sewing machine, fabrics, stuffing, not 1 but 3 computers, AND I have to keep this stuff seperate from the 12 cats if I want to sell anything!

As I said, I originally planned on a trailer to tow, and my plans evolved as I started walking around inside actual RVs. Need for storage space and a work studio was one of the deciding factors on my chooseing a Class A motorhome instead of the trailer I had originally planned on.

You see, the motorhome had a basment. Which, was like, OMG! Wow! I had no idea there was such a thing as a basment in an RV, until one day I was walking through the lot at a used RV dealer and the salesman, comes over and starts in his recital about the particular motorhome I was standing in. He spent a good 20 minutes chattering non stop as he went through it opening every cupboard, drawer, pulling out the sofa to show me it was a bed, folding down the dinnett booth to show me it too was a bed, than it was, and I'll show you the outside...

Outside? I already saw the outside, what the heck was he taking about? (This was my first time looking at a Class A, so I had no idea they had all this outside stuff he was about to show me.) He starts pulling out hidden compartments, and it was another 20 minutes of: here's the outside shower, here's the outside grill, here's the generator, here the roll out storage hold, here's the basment.... wait a minute? Basment? Wait. What? Did you say basment? This thing has a basment? This I had to get a closer look at. Yep, it had a basment - I could practically drive my Volvo up inside the thing. OMG! There's a basment in here. Do they all have basments? The answer was, yep, pretty much. A basment is a standard feature on a Class A motorhome. (Class Cs and trailers don't have basments.)

So, I went around the lot looking underneath motorhomes to see if they had basments, and yep, they all did. But this revilations was like...OMG! I don't have to worry about storage anymore - I REALLY CAN take it all with me! OMG! I have a place to put my comic book collection, the cat crates when not in use, the screen house so the cats can go outdoors, my sewing machine...everything! They'll all fit in the basment, no worries at all, and leave all that living space open inside the motorhome. This is PERFECT! WOW! Why didn't somebody tell me these things had basments before? I had no idea!

And than there was the other thing I had not thought of - I could keep my Volvo too - a Class A motorhome had plenty of power to tow it. Double YAY!

But, anyways, yeah. That's the evolution of how I decided what was too big and too small for me.

Another thing to consider - how small of small living have you done in your life up to this point? Many fulltimers did at some point live in a small space and had no trouble adjusting to an RV's 150 foot living space. People who give up fulltiming after a few short months are very often those who ALWAYS lived in a big house - they simple could not adjust to the drastic change in size. It's not a bad thing to admit you can not live in a small space, few people can, but it is important to consider your own comfort and sanity. If you are not going to be happy in a small space than you should not force yourself to be in one. So think about that too, before you go ahead with this. Rent a trailer or motorhome for 3 or 4 months and live in it full time to see if you can live this lifestyle or not.

Small living for me, is not a problem.

I grew up in a beach cabin. 7 people. 8 dogs. 9 cats. 3 birds. In a 1 bedroom beach cabin 16 feet long by 9 feet. This sort of thing is not unusual in my town, which is a tiny Maine beach resort with 8,000 residents. More than half the houses in town are under 1,000 square feet, many under 300 square feet. Ours was one of the larger houses. Behind our land is an RV resort with 400 lots, beside them is a "hide a way" campground with 225 lots. Across the street and down away is the largest of our towns 30 RV parks, which has 725 lots. Many people in these parks are fulltimers. So, I grew up with the "small living lifestyle" and growing up in this town, I was well into my 30s before I realized that the year round residents of our town were sort of considered as freaks to the rest of society, seeing how the entire community was made up of families living in homes smaller than the average family's bedroom! In fact I was shocked to learn that people ACTUALLY LIVED in houses that were bigger. (You can tell I had never been outside of this town. Also I have Autism, so I'm not prone to thinking about what other people do much.)

Anyways. May 9, 2006, a flood came home and took the house with it. I was surrounded by death and destruction and found myself alone. Just me, 2 dogs, and 9 cats. Me with Autism and having no idea how to do pretty much ANYTHING.

I stayed on the land, but having no house, I lived the first few years under a 8x6 tarp. I eventually got a Volvo and lived in that for the next couple of years. I am currently in the process of buying a motorhome, and should be moving into it this fall. A 31' Class A from the 1980s, it'll be my BIGGEST home yet - at 31'x9 ' it is almost twice as big as the 16'x9' house I grew up in, and it'll be just me and the cats, in the house I had been one of 7 people.

When I tell people about my motorhome I'm buying (for $3,000) and how it's like moving into a mansion for me, they respond wit: "That tiny thing? You call that a mansion? What the heck did you live in before?". Than they laugh and tease me about it. Well, I don't care what they say. I'm glad I'm getting this motorhome. Having all that living space available for me and the cats is going to make HUGE improvements in my life. I can't wait to move in.

So, basically, in the end, what this all boils down to is personal preferance. What feels too big for you? What feels too small for you? How much space do you need? How much space do you want? How much space is too much? How much space is not enough? How much storage do you think you need? How much storage do you really need? But as I said, until you start walking around inside of the actually RVs it's all just speculation - you really have to take several types and sizes out for a test drive to get a feel of what it is you are actually going to enjoy and be comfortable living in.

-- Edited by EelKat on Sunday 14th of August 2011 12:01:29 PM

Luvglass · RV-Dreams Family Member

All I can say is WOW! :)

As a practical comment, I don't believe all states require pets to be crated and in the truck. We know many people that leave their cats in the fiver when moving, they are more comfortable and all cabinets are secured to prevent opening.

Good luck on your adventure.

Mallo · RV-Dreams Family Member

I have to concur with Luglass not all states have laws banning cats in towed RV's in fact in most states it is legal to put your kids in the trailer and tow it down the road (in general they have to have some means of communication with the tow vehicle but that is hardly universal.)

I'll also have to disagree on crating cats ours are all rescues at least one was born feral all three crate well (the two ferals are easier to crate then the stray going off your definations).

We find that crated we don't have to worry about them as much in the case of a panic stop.

Just one mans opinion and worth what you paid for it.

Mallo

MrToad · RV-Dreams Community Member

Having visited a number of RV shows I had dealers tell me to stick to a RV 30 feet or below if I wanted to be assured access to all National Parks. Can anyone confirm this to be true. Thanks.

Luvglass · RV-Dreams Family Member

As a purely mathematical problem, they are probably correct. I'm sure that there are some small percentage of the almost 60 NP's that have a severe length restrictions, but far and away most of them will handle rigs in the mid 30's easily. You will tend to find more restrictions in state parks however.

If this is going to be your home, is it more important to be comfortable all the time, or to be able to fit in one or 2 particular parks for a few days? And BTW, there is sure to be a workable commercial park close to the NP.

John & Mandi · RV-Dreams Community Member

We will full time in a smaller unit compared to most. We have a 826 sq ft home and also feel it is "large". Out of three bedrooms we really only use one. We have our kayaks and unnecessary stuff in one and one for our dogs. We originally were going to start in our Pleasure-way class B but with the dogs it was too small and our outdoor activities require a bit of gear. One of our options is a 3/4 to 1 ton Cargo van pulling a 21-24 ft TT. Getting a cargo van reduces some upfront costs vs a SUV and it can be built out to suit our needs. For a TT we are leaning hard towards Bigfoot. They are fiberglass, 4 season ready and wider than Casita/Scamp which makes the sleeping space larger (we have owed a 13 ft Scamp that we towed behind a Jeep Wrangler JK). Our other option is a 24ft Class C with only a cab over bed to maximize "living space".

Definitely figure out what you want and don't want such as a couch, dinette, wet or dry bath etc... In a small camper eliminating unnecessary pre-bolted items makes a huge difference in how you can customize the space. You can modify anything but having electrical or plumbing in places you want to change can pose challenges.

Another idea is to find a used 4x4 full sized van if the photography requires off-the-beaten path locations. I don't think any vans are optioned with 4x4 anymore but they once were. Converting one can run close to 10K!

No matter what you do make sure you calculate your weights. Anything, including passengers, in the Van reduces the towing capacity i.e. capability. Used makes the dollar go farther, removes the stigma of changing something brand new and hopefully any problems were already shaken out.

I built a crude spreadsheet sometime ago to compare trucks, vans etc so if you want it let me know. It's not fancy but provides basic calculations to "narrow" the field.

Good luck and happy hunting.

-John

dczrose · RV-Dreams Community Member

We looked at many sizes and a 23' RV was the smallest we could go due to the dogs and storage. So far so good. Sometimes I wish I had a bit more space but then it would be more weight= more gas consumption. We changed the overhead bunk area in our Coachman to a storage area- that gave us all we needed besides the over head racks in our sleep area in back and the minimal kitchen cabinets and closet space for clothes.

vagabondishlady · RV-Dreams Community Member

Think it is a question of what we are willing to live with. One person's castle could very well be someone else's nightmare. I could never do a Class A motorhome - fear of heights (lol), seriously. I was nervous the entire time I test drove one and I know my stress will keep me from enjoying my travel. I rented a Roadtrek 2 years ago and went on a 4 week trip with my then 21 year old son and 13 year old daughter and of course our dog. It was tight quarters but we carried a large canvas tent which we set up for my son each night. We boondocked most nights.

We have gone 4 - 7 week long trips when the kids were much younger in my suv across the entire east coast doing 95 and 1 and again another trip east coast to west coast and back. We have slept in the car occasionally, just flatten all the seats, put down a quilt and sleep. Occasionally we would find a spot where we could pitch a tent and we did. It was spontaneous, took us many times through back roads and sights we would not have seen even if we had planned every minute of it.

I personally plan to get a Roadtrek, probably the 190. I know I will be able to do it. We downsized from a much larger, mostly unused space 3000 sq feet home to what is now a 800 square feet condo. What has made it easy is every time we moved 100s to 1000s of miles we have had to pitch most everything out and start fresh. My (yet to buy) stable Roadtrek which I hope to use for many years would be a cake walk. Plan to hold on to my much loved kodiak canvas tent for those times when I hope that my children join me.