Warning: Long post that will hopefully inspire some good discussion

I am going to throw out some thoughts I have on the new vs. used dilemma that have been stirring around in my head, and see if you all can help clarify thoughts with me. Everyone is familiar with the traditional logic of buy late model used and let someone else take the depreciation hit. I do not mind doing this but want to make sure it makes sense.
There are several traditional reasons for buying new over used as follows: ( I realize these lists are not complete, but they are suitably illustrative for my purpose)
1) You get the options and color selections. If you must have it your way then new is basically the only way to go.
2) Known vehicle history, with new there is no unknown to deal with.
3)Manufacturer warranty support.
4) Some people just do not like the idea of buying a bed/shower/bathroom/etc that anyone else has used before and new solves this problem.
5) If you have the financial means then the time saved of just ordering what you want vs finding something that is suitable is a big deal.

With used you typically find the upside of:
1) Savings - which means you can buy more than you would have otherwise
with the much bigger list of downsides such as:
2) Unknown vehicle history
3) Large amount of time and effort to find the right vehicle
4) unlikely to find exactly what you want so you always settle.

So with this in mind I will stipulate that I am willing to buy used, but I want to make sure it is for the right reasons. I am willing to put in the legwork to find what I want since I have more spare time than money, otherwise I would just buy new. I also want more coach than I can afford, and am flexible about what is optimal in color and appointments. I think my budget is $250K, I can comfortable go over to 300K because borrowing 50K is just not that big a deal and I could less comfortably borrow 100K if need be. But I would rather go under by 50K and have the extra money in the nest egg for our next Vegas visit. (watch "Lost in America" if that line makes no sense). I realize a $150K range is huge, but I am very logical and I want what I want, I do not need to spend more just for ego and I try not to settle for less. In car shopping the sales guy frequently tries to negotiate on monthly payment, I always tell them that I can probably make the numbers work for any car he has on his lot and he is welcome to try to sell me anything on his lot, but I will only buy the features I want at a good price and I am not staying longer than 60 minutes. Bottom line is that usually focuses them on feature comparisons rather than price comparisons.
So what do I want in a motor home is the next thing to discuss and I will try to list these in priority order:
1) RVDude made a excellent point in another thread about CCC and making sure that is right for you. I refuse to compromise my safety and that of anyone around me, and starting with a overloaded vehicle makes no sense. I have yet to see a approx 40 ft coach with a good carrying capacity without a tag axle. So I think a tag axle is a must have. I would like at leaset 4000#, but 3000 is probably OK. It amazed me how many had only 1200 or 1500. I have no idea how the single axle 03/04/05 models were but a tag seems to have been less frequently seen then as many models were shorter.
2) A king size bed is a must have.
2a) solid hard wood cabinetry and a sturdy solid feel to all walls and such.
3) A desk or workstation is a must have, but the ability to change or modify interior furniture to accommodate this need is also OK.
4) No CRT TV over the driver. Just to big and I am to tall to deal with head bumping. Flat LCD's are fine as they do not seem to be in the way nearly as much. I have a 32" Aquos at home and the ability to convert to that would also be fine.
5) 10,000# Hitch as I may want to pull a trailer over a toad
6) Table and chairs over a dinette is desirable.
7) Hydronic Heating seems like a good thing
8) Solid surface flooring is also desirable, but another easily changeable item if I get the right unit without this.

So Now I think I have layed out my situation and the basic criteria we are working from. Since I think a 4317 Duchstar Diesel Pusher could be equiped perfectly for us with a list of about $360K I would have to call that the baseline. Based on what I have read and such it seems that a good negotiation will get around 30% off MSRP, then I can buy the DSDP for my 250K budget and be done. I alos believe I would be perfectly happy in this unit and it would make a wonderful coach to Full Time in as it meets all our needs. It is also worth mentioning that a new DSDP will have Comfort Drive.

So why you may ask am I looking further, because I always want more. With the baseline established we can not look at used units. For brevity I am just going to look at Newmar and Travel supreme used, but the same thoughts apply to Country Coach, Beaver, Monaco, Alpine or others that I would consider used.

Newmar Duchstar - If I go back to old they lose the tag axle, so I have no idea of carrying capacity. If I look at a 06 or 07 unit they seem to ask to close to a new unit price and there will be no comfort drive. If a new is $250K then I could never imagine spending more than $200K for a used unit, and this makes most private sellers upside down, so they can not sell. Dealers on the other hand can essentially get a premium when they have someone with a trade who is shopping monthly price, they can put them into these instead of new and make a tidy profit. SO I do not believe I could get into a used DSDP.

Newmar Mountain Are - This is probably where I have to look on the used front. If I get a 07 then it has Comfort Drive, but feature wise and 06 or 07 would work well as it is comparable to the features of a new DSDP, but is it more. That is what I have to figure out since I am at the same 250K price point. Today a MADP lists for about $460K well equipped, but if you look back at 04/05 they were much cheaper and very comparable to todays DSDP. As a matter of fact Hydronic heat was an option then, so a 04/05 would have to be about 200K to make any sense but it is essentially like the 06/07 DSDP.

Essex - 07 is a budget buster unless I find something I really love for about $350 which I doubt I would. 06 could be a nice stretch at that price but is it worth it. It would lack comfort drive and be functionally very similar to the new DSDP, with some upgraded glitz and finishes. I don't really like their current standard roof with the dark trim (although RVDude's light trim customization looks great in pics) As a 04/05 the ESDP may be a good buy, but my concern is am I really getting much more than in a 08 DSDP.

So what we see with the newmar line is that they keep pushing up the price so the new coach is like the older version of the next model up. It makes it hard to buy a used Newmar as the attraction of the new at the similar price is high. I wonder if they have inflated resale values. One other note is I would like to visit Mexico, so the old engine may have a benefit for me as I do not know when mexico will introduce ULSD.

Travel Supreme - Since the TS seems to be more stable feature wise I can look at a 2003/4/5 TS and find some buys that may make more sense that a Newmar. There is a 03 Select owned by a friend of several people around here. This seems to have all the desired features and as far as I can tell is more feature laden than a similar aged Essex with things like Hydonic heat and flat panel TV's. And it would be below budget which is good. There are some other 04/05 TS units around that have all the desired features and essentially give me a big upscale coach for the right price. And if I look at the Alante model then I can probably get a 06 in budget range. The basic interesting fact is that the TS Select competes today with the Essex, but if we go back to older models like 04/05 the Essex seems stripped compared to what the Select has. We know that newmar has pushed price brackets up over the last few years tremendously so I think that contributes to the dilema. The TS Alante today competes with the Mountain Are, but it you look at a 2 or 3 year old unit the Alante seemed to clearly be above them. I have minimal knowledge of TS past pricing, so I have no idea how that compares with Newmar.

So here is what I am having trouble getting my head around. When I look at Newmar I really like the new DSDP, but I have a hard time thinking of them seriously for a used purchase as the other brand usually looks like a better buy. The analysis seems to hold for others besides TS as well. Putting this another way, if I spend $250K on a new DSDP I could be very happy, but I don't think I can save enough on a used Newmar to feel it compares well with used of another brand.

Some data for those interested:
The 2006 Mountain are had a list of 350K, today a 08 is about 460K. Used this guy seems to think 250K is the right price, but it seems to me that a new DSDP for similar is smarter since it has full warranty and my selections. After all the current DSDP mold I am told is the old 06 MADP mold.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Newmar-MOUNTIAN-AIRE-400-Cummins-4304-4-Slide-RV-TAG_W0QQitemZ110173173043QQihZ001QQcategoryZ50056QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
And similar, maybe a little nicer featured one is here.
http://www.irv2.com/rvclassifieds/viewlisting.php?view=430

this guy wants $325 for a 05 ESDP, but a new MADP (which is based on the molds of the 05 ESDP) with a MSRP or $460 should be about that. An I way off with the 30% off MSRP number?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2005-NEWMAR-ESSEX-4502-45-FT_W0QQitemZ170152458077QQihZ007QQcategoryZ50056QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

But this looks like a good buy for a 05 TS Select at 260K
http://www.rvtrader.com/rvdetail752412.htm

Here is another 05 Select for 265K
http://www.rvtrader.com/rvdetail1937949.htm

Since these are asking prices and not selling prices I am not sure what to think. But it seems to me that Newmar may be helping to hold up the price of their used units by constantly having feature and price creep upwards. I have seen many people complain on various boards about how newmar have really gone price crazy the last few years, so maybe they are not they great buy they used to be, especially in light of reducing the warranty from 3 years. (I am not expressing this thought only stating that I have seen it frequently expressed)

Currently a ESDP and a Select Compete head on, but in O5 a ESDP seems to have been lower than a Select, yet the Select has a lower used asking price.
A MADP competes head on with the Alante today, but we go back a bit and the MADP was lower line coach so again the Alante seems like the wise used buy.

In another thread I indicated being concerned about if TS were good coaches and I realised I thought that because they seemed to suffer greater depreciation than the Newmar. But if one if looking to get big bang for the buck then maybe a used Select is a good deal.

I have rambled long enough now, but I have this jumble of thoughts that I am trying to resolve and rather than asking a simple "is this a good buy" type question I wanted to put you all in my frame of reference since you all are so thoughtful and insightful in answers.

-- Edited by brucedelta at 13:14, 2007-09-28