We had a power event a couple of weeks ago after moving from the Keys to an Rv park. When we arrived  at Whisper Creek Resort we plugged in  and set up like we always do. We use a TRC 50 amp surgeguard and it went through its tests before delivering power to the rig. I went in and turned on air,fridge and went back out to set the satelitte dish. When I came back in all seemed normal until I got an error message on the dish receiver I had never seen before. I did't think too much about it and reset the receiver and it started its setup program. While I was waiting for it to setup I started the microwave to warm up some lunch and thats when the dish receiver started smoking ,microwave popped and power flashed. I unplugged the receiver and took it outside and killed the power to the coach. I called the park personel to let them know what happened and they sent out a maintence guy. We checked the power at the pedistal and all seemed right there but I still wasn't sure it was not the parks power so we called an RV repair shop and they came out about four hours later to check the problem. At first they said it was the park pedistal but changed their minds after consulting with an electrician. We ended up calling Florida Power and Light and they sent out a tech and he could not find any problems on their end. He did say that he hated those surge protectors and had seen them cause problems before. Also the park maintence guy said he had seen the same thing happen a couple months ago with the same surge protector. After much deliberation I decided to go ahead and plug back in w/o the surge protection and check the damage. We lost our Dish receiver, DVD Stereo, DVD recorder, MIcro/Convection Oven and our GFI circuit. We have been running for the last 2 weeks with no other issues. I  contacted the Surge Protector Tech and asked him if the surge protector could cause this and he did say it was possible. We are supposed to be mailing it back to them so they can bench test it for error codes.  I also talked to the other couple who had a similar incident and they lost a lot more equipment but returned their TRC to Camping World for an exchange without finding the cause of their power incident. If anyone knows anything about this subject please comment. I thought we were protected from power events like this with our surge guard only to find out this MAY be the cause. Now I still dont know this for sure, but if the park itself had the surge shouldnt the surge protection stop the power flow? I have replaced most of the equipment but still need to know why this happened.

Jeff, I have a couple of thoughts but naturally the manufacture may be able to glean more data.  One thought has to do with the long (8 seconds) this product waits before removing power below 102 or above 132 volts.  8 seconds, IMO, is a long time for voltage to be high or low.  But what you describe sounds like an "open neutral" for which the device is supposed to protect but perhaps has a time delay just like the over / under voltage protection delay.  In general if the neutral goes open (becomes disconnected) the two 120 volts circuits can then have 240 volts across them and this can happen when more equipment is turned on and that equipment's power supplies become a conductor. (Yes, a terrible over simplification but the best I can do to explain the situation in one sentence.)

There is a difference between over voltage and a large voltage "spike."  The latter should be protected by components (MOVs) which operate immediately to clamp down the very high voltage spike.  Smaller over (or under) voltage situations require the device to measure the voltage and actually open a relay which disconnects the power from the rig.  As mention before, with an 8 second delay if the voltage were to go up (not a spike) above the 132 volt point to who knows what and the device waits 8 seconds before doing anything about the problem certainly some damage could occur.

All of the above is conjecture in your case because one can't know for sure even with your complete explanation.  Now comes the recommendation:

Replace that product with a Progressive Industries HW-50C.  It doesn't wait 8 seconds to take action for one and has available a read out which can be placed in the coach providing a lot of information including error codes which tell one immediately  "what happened" as to any action taken by the product.  Voltage as well as amp read outs let one know "how goes it" and can be really useful in managing power in marginal power situations.

There are a lot of threads here discussing power protection. IMO, the HW-50C is the best product currently available without exception.  It's expensive, but so are the repairs to the coach.  That little box has saved our rig numerous times and I just can't recommend it enough.  Lifetime warranty - field repairable - 1-800 teck support and they do call you back right away even after hours.

http://www.progressiveindustries.net/ems-hw50c

I do recommend the hardwired unit as this allows for the remote readout in the rig.  There is a bypass switch allowing the unit to pass power no-matter what.  Bypassing is not recommended but that takes the concern out of having a hardwired unit.  

My views.  Sorry for your trouble.

Bill

Bill,

Thanks for your quick reply and explanation. This makes some since I guess.  On the progressive unit, we owned one and had numerous issues with it. Yes the company was good about repairing it and returning it but we had lots of false readings with it,for example it would read high voltage and I would check pole with volt meter and it would read 120 v and the unit was saying 160. Thats why I got rid of it and tried the TRC. What do you make of the Florida Power and Light guy saying he hated these surge protectors?  I have always tried to run a tight ship and be proactive in maintence and upkeep. I do alot or as much as I can myself because good service is so hard to find. But when it comes to AC I have very limited knowledge but am open to learning to save headaches and money.

Thanks Again

After getting nothing but good advice from Bill over the last year, this post caught my eye. I went to Amazon intending to buy the portable version of the Progressive Industries 50 Amp protector. I was surprised at all the negative comments regarding the units susceptibility to water invasion during rain storms. One gent opened his up and water came pouring out! Water and electricity are a bad combination. I understand that the hard wired version would be protected from the elements, which would eliminate the water issue, but the hard wiring thing would be an all day job for me due to where the electrical plug is and what would have to be removed to gain access. I currently have a Technology Research 44270 Surge Guard 50 Amp Surge Protector plugged into the park's pedestal and a Hughes 50 Amp Autoformer (model RV 220-50) plugged into the the Surge Protector and the 5er plugged into the Autoformer. I actually use the Surge Protector to protect the Hughes Autoformer as it's a $500 unit. Sort of hybrid thing trying to get the best of both.

Ron,

Just received an email from RV upgrades showing the newly designed Progressive units that address the water issue. As Bill mentioned earlier the built in might be the way to go as they have a bypass if needed. I had the portable before.

Jeff

Jeffmarl wrote:

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Bill,

Thanks for your quick reply and explanation. This makes some since I guess.  On the progressive unit, we owned one and had numerous issues with it. Yes the company was good about repairing it and returning it but we had lots of false readings with it,for example it would read high voltage and I would check pole with volt meter and it would read 120 v and the unit was saying 160. Thats why I got rid of it and tried the TRC. What do you make of the Florida Power and Light guy saying he hated these surge protectors?  I have always tried to run a tight ship and be proactive in maintence and upkeep. I do alot or as much as I can myself because good service is so hard to find. But when it comes to AC I have very limited knowledge but am open to learning to save headaches and money.

Thanks Again

---

 Your comment about the PI reading 160 and the pole reading 120 - sounds like you might have been reading a different leg.  Lots of old transformers will output higher voltage on one leg then the other two - the old "Y" vs. "Delta" transformer wring thing.  In 11 years I've never had an issue with the PI unit.  That's all I can say.

As to the FP&L guy (when I worked in Florida we used to call them Florida Flicker and Light - but I digress) not liking them - well they show a lot of voltage issues that maybe the utility company doesn't care to deal with - note comment about old pole transformers with the the "high leg" issues that are not that uncommon in campgrounds.

RonC wrote:

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After getting nothing but good advice from Bill over the last year, this post caught my eye. I went to Amazon intending to buy the portable version of the Progressive Industries 50 Amp protector. I was surprised at all the negative comments regarding the units susceptibility to water invasion during rain storms. One gent opened his up and water came pouring out! Water and electricity are a bad combination. I understand that the hard wired version would be protected from the elements, which would eliminate the water issue, but the hard wiring thing would be an all day job for me due to where the electrical plug is and what would have to be removed to gain access. I currently have a Technology Research 44270 Surge Guard 50 Amp Surge Protector plugged into the park's pedestal and a Hughes 50 Amp Autoformer (model RV 220-50) plugged into the the Surge Protector and the 5er plugged into the Autoformer. I actually use the Surge Protector to protect the Hughes Autoformer as it's a $500 unit. Sort of hybrid thing trying to get the best of both.

-- Edited by RonC on Friday 30th of December 2016 12:59:24 PM

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 Ron, I've never recommended any "out door" protection device including the one from Progressive Industries. I've always recommend the HW50C which goes in the coach.  Yes, an all day project for some.  Worth it for me.  Again, a choice.   I, personally, wouldn't use any out door unit for many of the reasons you indicate starting with water.  Redesigned or not, IMO, why put a box full of critical circuitry outside where water can get into it and have another set of contacts with the extra plug to deteriorate.  Again, my opinion.  I'm pretty sure if you read any of my posts over the years on this subject I've always given the specific model number I recommend.

As to the Autoformer - that's fine.  No objection.  But to be "legal" it has to go at the pole.  Can't "legally" wire that into the coach per the instructions.  As it has to go outside I've opted not to have one and so far been fine without it.  But it is fine to have.  A choice.

Jeffmarl wrote:

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Ron,

Just received an email from RV upgrades showing the newly designed Progressive units that address the water issue. As Bill mentioned earlier the built in might be the way to go as they have a bypass if needed. I had the portable before.

Jeff

---

Jeff, FWIW, as I commented above, I really would put the device in the rig.  Yes, it takes a little time to wire it in - 4 wires in - 4 wires out, plus running the little wire from the box to the read out.  But keeping everything in the rig is just, IMO, a better design and the work is worth the gain and protection.  I just don't like the portable units as they don't offer the same overall functionality.  But that's just my opinion.

Bill and Linda wrote:

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RonC wrote:

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After getting nothing but good advice from Bill over the last year, this post caught my eye. I went to Amazon intending to buy the portable version of the Progressive Industries 50 Amp protector. I was surprised at all the negative comments regarding the units susceptibility to water invasion during rain storms. One gent opened his up and water came pouring out! Water and electricity are a bad combination. I understand that the hard wired version would be protected from the elements, which would eliminate the water issue, but the hard wiring thing would be an all day job for me due to where the electrical plug is and what would have to be removed to gain access. I currently have a Technology Research 44270 Surge Guard 50 Amp Surge Protector plugged into the park's pedestal and a Hughes 50 Amp Autoformer (model RV 220-50) plugged into the the Surge Protector and the 5er plugged into the Autoformer. I actually use the Surge Protector to protect the Hughes Autoformer as it's a $500 unit. Sort of hybrid thing trying to get the best of both.

-- Edited by RonC on Friday 30th of December 2016 12:59:24 PM

---

 Ron, I've never recommended any "out door" protection device including the one from Progressive Industries. I've always recommend the HW50C which goes in the coach.  Yes, an all day project for some.  Worth it for me.  Again, a choice.   I, personally, wouldn't use any out door unit for many of the reasons you indicate starting with water.  Redesigned or not, IMO, why put a box full of critical circuitry outside where water can get into it and have another set of contacts with the extra plug to deteriorate.  Again, my opinion.  I'm pretty sure if you read any of my posts over the years on this subject I've always given the specific model number I recommend.

As to the Autoformer - that's fine.  No objection.  But to be "legal" it has to go at the pole.  Can't "legally" wire that into the coach per the instructions.  As it has to go outside I've opted not to have one and so far been fine without it.  But it is fine to have.  A choice.

---

 Bill, I wasn't saying that you recommended the outdoor unit.  The "good advice" reference was a compliment.  The reason I looked at the portable unit was that it was the brand you recommended (not the model) ... and if you recommend it, it's probably pretty good.

Bill, Thanks again for all your insight and knowledge. Guess I should have done my homework before I went out and bought a surge protector. I bought the first portable because I thought if it failed it would be easy to replace or fix and I would have the option to run without it. Didn't kwow the hardwired had the bypass feature. After doing a side by side comparison of the Progressive and TRC I see the Progressive has much better features.

We are getting ready to move tomorrow to Jonathan Dickinson State Park for our Camphost job. We were there last year and never had any issues with the power so I feel pretty confident the parks power will be OK. I have not gotten much response from TRC, they said they were going to ship me a mailer which I haven't received. 

I have given what you said about the 8 sec delay some thought and I agree thats a LONG time to feed high voltage to the RV. What do you think could have caused this open neutral situation. Could the post be wired wrong but delivers the proper voltage when the demand is low but when I put on both air conditioners and the microwave it needed more power and delivered the 240V. Just kind of thinking outloud but just have this feeling maybe something is not quite right with the park power. We have not put any high demands on the power since we plugged back in, only one air,no microwave........etc.  any more thoughts?

RonC wrote:

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Bill and Linda wrote:

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 Ron, I've never recommended any "out door" protection device including the one from Progressive Industries. I've always recommend the HW50C which goes in the coach.  Yes, an all day project for some.  Worth it for me.  Again, a choice.   I, personally, wouldn't use any out door unit for many of the reasons you indicate starting with water.  Redesigned or not, IMO, why put a box full of critical circuitry outside where water can get into it and have another set of contacts with the extra plug to deteriorate.  Again, my opinion.  I'm pretty sure if you read any of my posts over the years on this subject I've always given the specific model number I recommend.

As to the Autoformer - that's fine.  No objection.  But to be "legal" it has to go at the pole.  Can't "legally" wire that into the coach per the instructions.  As it has to go outside I've opted not to have one and so far been fine without it.  But it is fine to have.  A choice.

---

 Bill, I wasn't saying that you recommended the outdoor unit.  The "good advice" reference was a compliment.  The reason I looked at the portable unit was that it was the brand you recommended (not the model) ... and if you recommend it, it's probably pretty good.

---

Ron, I took your comment as a compliment.  Thank you.  Always appreciated.  Here's the deal - Many of these forum questions - especially the technical ones - really require a lot more explanation and Q&A to really make sure the response is understood and to get to the heart of the matter.  I try to balance long answers, which many won't read or seem too technical, with enough specifics to make sure the thought is conveyed.  I have no desire to be "right" about everything because many times what one does is "A choice" or "It depends" which I often state.  But if I, or anyone else who perhaps has more experience in an area states "you have to buy the one I bought" then it comes off as a Ford / Chevy type argument.  So I try to balance "do it my way" with choices if at all possible.  I also try to point out the benefits of spending a bit more money now to not only save money and trouble later but also to enjoy value added by spending those extra dollars upfront.  (Like "H" tires.)

Progressive Industries, IMO and in my experience, builds the best electrical protection system on the market - specifically the HW50C or the HW30C for 30 amp rigs with the in-the-coach read out.  But they also make, as do other electrical product manufactures, products I would not recommend.  Not because they are necessarily poorly designed.  But because I wouldn't use that particular product no matter how well designed.  An outside electrical protection system is one of those.  While outside is better than nothing, I still wouldn't recommend them even though some are less expensive.

BTW, if installing the HW50C - IF the rig has a builtin generator change over switch I strongly recommend putting the HW50C before the switch, not after.  That way the change over switch is protected from a lighting hit and if the HW50C "scarifies" itself to protect the rig one still has the generator for power until repairs can be made. If the HW50C is "after" the switch and the lighting takes out the switch then no shore or generator power.

So, for me, its kind of a tight rope between saying, as a friend says pretty bluntly, "You don't want that!" and trying to be specific and yet not hurt someone's feelings who did just that.  After years of doing this it is still hard.  But I really do hate to see people have issues when they can probably avoid them.  Be those issues tires, electrical protection systems, suspensions, truck capacities or the like. 

I doubt anyone is really interested in all of this but decided to write it anyway.

Bill,

Your comments are always of interest to me, so don't be hesitant to make them.

As for the PI system, we had one added to our Mobile Suites after we retired and headed for Colorado for a time.  We did it because the site we were hooked up to in Oklahoma City had some power issues, which I think added to the issue of two different Whirlpool washers going on the fritz.  We did get the hard-wired 50 amp system with the remote display, as I had seen plenty of recommendations here at RV Dreams about them.

Terry

Jeffmarl wrote:

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Bill, Thanks again for all your insight and knowledge. Guess I should have done my homework before I went out and bought a surge protector. I bought the first portable because I thought if it failed it would be easy to replace or fix and I would have the option to run without it. Didn't kwow the hardwired had the bypass feature. After doing a side by side comparison of the Progressive and TRC I see the Progressive has much better features.

We are getting ready to move tomorrow to Jonathan Dickinson State Park for our Camphost job. We were there last year and never had any issues with the power so I feel pretty confident the parks power will be OK. I have not gotten much response from TRC, they said they were going to ship me a mailer which I haven't received. 

I have given what you said about the 8 sec delay some thought and I agree thats a LONG time to feed high voltage to the RV. What do you think could have caused this open neutral situation. Could the post be wired wrong but delivers the proper voltage when the demand is low but when I put on both air conditioners and the microwave it needed more power and delivered the 240V. Just kind of thinking outloud but just have this feeling maybe something is not quite right with the park power. We have not put any high demands on the power since we plugged back in, only one air,no microwave........etc.  any more thoughts?

---

 Jeff, let's run through a few things FWIW.  First, many refer to these power protection products pretty generically as "Surge Protectors."  One can purchase a less expensive "surge protector" but all that does, while important, is basically protect against lighting strikes.  Over voltage - say 145 volts, or more, won't cause a simple surge protector to do anything except sit there.  They are for true very high spikes such as come from lightening.  True power protection systems, EMS they are sometimes called, do surge protection and a lot, lot more as you have discovered.  Over and under (think brown outs) voltage are but one of their functions. That is why true power protection systems, like the HW50C, cost a bunch more.  And don't forget the in coach read out which can really tell you a lot concerning the current power situation and what happened.  RV parks are notorious for bad power.  While that situation is getting better with newer parks and re-wiring of older one, nonetheless campground power is an issue many times.  You might want to search some threads where we have discussed this in detail.  Happy to provide more info but there are many threads.

The 8 second response delay, as indicated in the cut sheet for the TRC, just makes no sense to me. Maybe I'm missing something. Won't be the first time. But this is not the air-conditioner delay which is much longer.  Yes, 8 seconds can prevent nuisance power interruptions.  But I'd rather know what's happening to the power rather then hope everything is going to be OK 8 seconds later.  The PI's response time, if memory serves, is in the milliseconds to an error condition.

I am speculating what you had was an open neutral.  But that's what it sounds like.  In campgrounds those female pugs get a lot of wear and are exposed to the elements.  Corrosion or a loose screw connection on the female receptacle could cause a momentary open neutral. It only takes a second to cause an issue.  I don't know for sure how long the TLC product would take to respond to this condition but I know 8 seconds, if that were the case, is too long.  Again, I am not personally familiar with that product.  Never used one.  I've just read the cut sheet on it which I did before responding to your query. 

One must remember that a 50 amp RV is just two separate 120 volt circuits which tie to, share, the same neutral.  IF that neutral is open - i.e. not connected to the CG neutral return bus, then two devices, e.g. satellite receiver / microwave, on the two different legs of the 50 amp service can all of a sudden "see" both 120 volt circuits through their power supplies and instant 240 volts across anything on those circuits.  Instant burn stuff up.  I can't be sure that's what happened but that, in response to your question, is my first guess.

All this is but one of the reasons a good EMS / power protection system is in my top three things every RV rig should have.  #1 on my list is much better then usually come on the rig tires (don't care about what brand) and #2 is disc brakes.  Both are different conversation.  #3 is the EMS.  Its number three because #1 and #2 can really hurt you physically.

Don't know how much this postmortem helps but maybe a little.

Bill

Jeffmarl wrote:

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Bill, Thanks again for all your insight and knowledge. Guess I should have done my homework before I went out and bought a surge protector. I bought the first portable because I thought if it failed it would be easy to replace or fix and I would have the option to run without it. Didn't kwow the hardwired had the bypass feature. After doing a side by side comparison of the Progressive and TRC I see the Progressive has much better features.

We are getting ready to move tomorrow to Jonathan Dickinson State Park for our Camphost job. We were there last year and never had any issues with the power so I feel pretty confident the parks power will be OK. I have not gotten much response from TRC, they said they were going to ship me a mailer which I haven't received. 

I have given what you said about the 8 sec delay some thought and I agree thats a LONG time to feed high voltage to the RV. What do you think could have caused this open neutral situation. Could the post be wired wrong but delivers the proper voltage when the demand is low but when I put on both air conditioners and the microwave it needed more power and delivered the 240V. Just kind of thinking outloud but just have this feeling maybe something is not quite right with the park power. We have not put any high demands on the power since we plugged back in, only one air,no microwave........etc.  any more thoughts?

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 Hi Jeff,

I have the Suregard, same as you but the hard wired version. I'm not in the mood to change but I would be interested in what TRC says when they get back to you.

We ran in to a power problem at Sugar Bottom that I believe was an open or weak neutral. In our case, the Sureguard refused to apply power after the usual 2+ minute delay. There was no delay where we had power then lost it 8 seconds later (that I recall). I reset the 50 amp breakers then tried again. Same result, so I switched to 30 amp, which worked fine. The weird thing was the pole bugged out fine, which the park guy verified when I reported the problem. Sometimes the neutral only opens under a load, so that's what I decided was happening. 30 amp is inherently safer if you think you might have a problem since it's single phase. An open neutral with 30 amp will just be a loss of power.

An open neutral can be a tough problem to detect. The ems doesn't have a solid neutral to measure against, so it may fumble. I'm not sure what you could have done differently, but as soon as you suspect you have a problem get on 30 amp if it's available. Sureguard is a reliable product in my experience, but it failed to help in this case and that sucks.

If you want to upgrade to a kickass audio system, I have some ideas.

-John