We just bought a Heartland Big Horn 3760EL. It comes with an 80 amp/12v converter.
I want to add a bank of AGM batteries, an inverter and a hardwired 50 amp Progressive surge protector. I'm looking for advice on how to go about doing this, selecting the right brands etc. It sounds like this is something I can do myself. Do I dare try it is the best left to the professionals? If so, where would be a good place to take it?
Bill and Linda said
02:25 PM Apr 12, 2015
If you have basic electrical skills putting in the Progressive Industries HW50C is pretty easy and a very important addition to any RV.I recommend putting it between the shore power cord and the generator change over relay (to protect the relay) if you have a generator.Otherwise it goes between the shore cord and the main breaker.
As to other items:It depends on the tools available and your understanding of high current 12 volt systems and how to properly make the necessary wire lug connections and product selections.
I’d start here at the link below and enjoy the read.Get comfortable. There is a lot of information here and it is important.Electrically batteries and inverters / solar is not complicated. However, installation procedures and wire / product selection is not cut and dried.It really does depend on a lot of factors.
Jack has a list of professionals in this link below who can help you if so desired.
I have two (in parallel) Honda 2000 watt inverter generators. If I didn't go the route of solar, would these generators fully charge the AGM batteries or would solor still be needed to "top them off"?
bjoyce said
04:16 PM Apr 12, 2015
Sweenja1: Does your converter have a 3-stage charger with adjustable charging settings and temperature compensation? If so, your generator will fully charge your batteries if the converter is set properly. Just like shore power, since the system would not know if you were using a generator or shore power. You would also need to set a solar charge controller, with temperature compensation, for your AGM batteries to fully charge them. Match the charging settings and both the converter and solar charge controller will play well together.
No temperature compensation or adjustable 3-stage charge settings? You will be replacing batteries much more quickly and will not be able to boondock as long, since your batteries will not be properly charged.
Sweenja1 said
07:00 PM Apr 12, 2015
Thank you, all good information!
Howard said
06:33 AM Apr 13, 2015
As bjoyce said, IF you have a good 3-stage charger with adjustable settings, "yes" your generators will "top off" the batteries. However, because the 3-stage charger gradually reduces the charge into the batteries, it can take hours for the generators to accomplish the "top off". Therefore, while the answer to the question " .... would these generators fully charge the AGM batteries? ...." the answer is "yes", but it would take a long time and is very inefficient given the fuel required in the generators.
Having done the AGM battery and inverter install as a "first stage", we spent the next year learning that we didn't want to run our generator once the charger went into the second and third stage of charging - too much noise and too much fuel consumption over too long a period for very little charging benefit. And, therefore, we would start each day at a 10 - 15% amp hour deficit. So, we learned first hand the value of solar to silently and efficiently get the battery bank back to 100% charge.
So, we did what you are contemplating and then added solar the next year. :)
Also, I will reiterate that it's very important to have a 3-stage charger AND that the settings be matched to the type of batteries you have. AGMs take different charge rates, and if the settings in the charger (and solar controller) aren't matched to AGMs, it's a very expensive lesson when you have to replace the batteries much sooner than you expected.
Bill and Linda said
07:43 AM Apr 13, 2015
Howard and BillJ make well the point that 12 volt battery, electrical systems, are not cut and dried.The “3-stage” charger point is critical.Not saying it is or isn’t in your rig, but many converter / chargers that come with a rig are not adequate to properly charge expensive AGM batteries.By adequate I mean not “smart enough” to have proper temperature compensation, etc.
If you plan to do more than just an occasional night of boondocking, IMO, solar is almost a necessity.It just takes a generator too long, due to the necessary 3 stage charging, to fully charge batteries. It isn’t the size of the generator – it’s the amount of fuel that will be consumed in the third or last stage of proper charging.
AGM batteries are an excellent choice.But they are expensive.Properly charged and cared for they will last many years.Mistreated they can be easily damaged (so can wet cell “golf cart” batteries) almost beyond recovery.As but an example, one should never discharge a battery bank below 50% of its amp hour value.The only way to know that 50% point accurately is with some type of battery monitor such as this one as but one example:http://www.bogartengineering.com/content/trimetrics
We present all this to encourage one to read up a bit and perhaps consult with some of those Jack recommend on is website as well as Howard’s write up of his installation. It is well worth the time IMO.
Bill
Bill and Linda said
08:18 AM Apr 13, 2015
Jerry:
Here is the direct link to Howard’s write up on his battery / inverter / solar installation.It gives a good perspective of what proper installation requires.Jack Mayer assisted Howard with this work and equipment recommendations. Some of these specific items are no longer made but the concepts are still totally valid.
I will make a modification to my last post concerning “never” discharging a battery bank below 50%.An occasional discharge a bit below 50% will not damage the batteries.But most battery manufactures use this 50% number as a recommended point for best battery life.It therefore is necessary to evaluate how many amp hours you estimate you will use each day and then put in twice that amount of battery bank amp hours wise.
Bank size recommendations are fine from others, but they totally depend on the style of boondocking.That is how much power is used every day. Howard and Linda as I recall, and we, have 600AH. That allows us 300AH per day and we seldom use all that 300AH 50% point. But we do come close at times.We have an RV type refrigerator and that saves a lot of amp hours running on LP gas as do Howard and Linda. Jack has a 1,200AH bank as I recall but runs a residential refrigerator.Others get by on less even than we have with even with a residential fridge. So “it depends” on what one needs and that includes charger and inverter sizing. Batteries as also heavy, so that factor must be taken into consideration as well.
Hope some of this from everyone helps a bit.
Bill
Sweenja1 said
04:26 PM Apr 13, 2015
This is all good information and I've been reading the information provided by both Howard and Jack. I do remember we covered the basics at the RV Dreams rally in Indiana last year.
What we want is to be able to boondock for 3-4 days at a time with enough power for a couple of laptops and TV. We have 18.3 cubic inch RV refrigerator and the lights are all LED. This leads to the next question of how many AGM batteries and how much solar do I need?
I do have to admit this is definitely a project I can't take on myself. I do know enough that I'd rather spend the extra money now to get somebody that knows what they are doing rather than to spend more money later because I tried to save a few bucks doing it myself.
So, now I am looking for the closest person to Wisconsin to help me figure out what I need and then install it. Any idea's?
We just bought a Heartland Big Horn 3760EL. It comes with an 80 amp/12v converter.
I want to add a bank of AGM batteries, an inverter and a hardwired 50 amp Progressive surge protector. I'm looking for advice on how to go about doing this, selecting the right brands etc. It sounds like this is something I can do myself. Do I dare try it is the best left to the professionals? If so, where would be a good place to take it?
If you have basic electrical skills putting in the Progressive Industries HW50C is pretty easy and a very important addition to any RV. I recommend putting it between the shore power cord and the generator change over relay (to protect the relay) if you have a generator. Otherwise it goes between the shore cord and the main breaker.
As to other items: It depends on the tools available and your understanding of high current 12 volt systems and how to properly make the necessary wire lug connections and product selections.
I’d start here at the link below and enjoy the read. Get comfortable. There is a lot of information here and it is important. Electrically batteries and inverters / solar is not complicated. However, installation procedures and wire / product selection is not cut and dried. It really does depend on a lot of factors.
Jack has a list of professionals in this link below who can help you if so desired.
http://www.jackdanmayer.com/rv_electrical_and_solar.htm
Bill
Thank you Bill!
I have two (in parallel) Honda 2000 watt inverter generators. If I didn't go the route of solar, would these generators fully charge the AGM batteries or would solor still be needed to "top them off"?
No temperature compensation or adjustable 3-stage charge settings? You will be replacing batteries much more quickly and will not be able to boondock as long, since your batteries will not be properly charged.
Thank you, all good information!
As bjoyce said, IF you have a good 3-stage charger with adjustable settings, "yes" your generators will "top off" the batteries. However, because the 3-stage charger gradually reduces the charge into the batteries, it can take hours for the generators to accomplish the "top off". Therefore, while the answer to the question " .... would these generators fully charge the AGM batteries? ...." the answer is "yes", but it would take a long time and is very inefficient given the fuel required in the generators.
Having done the AGM battery and inverter install as a "first stage", we spent the next year learning that we didn't want to run our generator once the charger went into the second and third stage of charging - too much noise and too much fuel consumption over too long a period for very little charging benefit. And, therefore, we would start each day at a 10 - 15% amp hour deficit. So, we learned first hand the value of solar to silently and efficiently get the battery bank back to 100% charge.
So, we did what you are contemplating and then added solar the next year. :)
Also, I will reiterate that it's very important to have a 3-stage charger AND that the settings be matched to the type of batteries you have. AGMs take different charge rates, and if the settings in the charger (and solar controller) aren't matched to AGMs, it's a very expensive lesson when you have to replace the batteries much sooner than you expected.
Howard and BillJ make well the point that 12 volt battery, electrical systems, are not cut and dried. The “3-stage” charger point is critical. Not saying it is or isn’t in your rig, but many converter / chargers that come with a rig are not adequate to properly charge expensive AGM batteries. By adequate I mean not “smart enough” to have proper temperature compensation, etc.
If you plan to do more than just an occasional night of boondocking, IMO, solar is almost a necessity. It just takes a generator too long, due to the necessary 3 stage charging, to fully charge batteries. It isn’t the size of the generator – it’s the amount of fuel that will be consumed in the third or last stage of proper charging.
AGM batteries are an excellent choice. But they are expensive. Properly charged and cared for they will last many years. Mistreated they can be easily damaged (so can wet cell “golf cart” batteries) almost beyond recovery. As but an example, one should never discharge a battery bank below 50% of its amp hour value. The only way to know that 50% point accurately is with some type of battery monitor such as this one as but one example: http://www.bogartengineering.com/content/trimetrics
We present all this to encourage one to read up a bit and perhaps consult with some of those Jack recommend on is website as well as Howard’s write up of his installation. It is well worth the time IMO.
Bill
Jerry:
Here is the direct link to Howard’s write up on his battery / inverter / solar installation. It gives a good perspective of what proper installation requires. Jack Mayer assisted Howard with this work and equipment recommendations. Some of these specific items are no longer made but the concepts are still totally valid.
http://www.rv-dreams.com/our-rv-electrical.html
I will make a modification to my last post concerning “never” discharging a battery bank below 50%. An occasional discharge a bit below 50% will not damage the batteries. But most battery manufactures use this 50% number as a recommended point for best battery life. It therefore is necessary to evaluate how many amp hours you estimate you will use each day and then put in twice that amount of battery bank amp hours wise.
Bank size recommendations are fine from others, but they totally depend on the style of boondocking. That is how much power is used every day. Howard and Linda as I recall, and we, have 600AH. That allows us 300AH per day and we seldom use all that 300AH 50% point. But we do come close at times. We have an RV type refrigerator and that saves a lot of amp hours running on LP gas as do Howard and Linda. Jack has a 1,200AH bank as I recall but runs a residential refrigerator. Others get by on less even than we have with even with a residential fridge. So “it depends” on what one needs and that includes charger and inverter sizing. Batteries as also heavy, so that factor must be taken into consideration as well.
Hope some of this from everyone helps a bit.
Bill
This is all good information and I've been reading the information provided by both Howard and Jack. I do remember we covered the basics at the RV Dreams rally in Indiana last year.
What we want is to be able to boondock for 3-4 days at a time with enough power for a couple of laptops and TV. We have 18.3 cubic inch RV refrigerator and the lights are all LED. This leads to the next question of how many AGM batteries and how much solar do I need?
I do have to admit this is definitely a project I can't take on myself. I do know enough that I'd rather spend the extra money now to get somebody that knows what they are doing rather than to spend more money later because I tried to save a few bucks doing it myself.
So, now I am looking for the closest person to Wisconsin to help me figure out what I need and then install it. Any idea's?
Again, thank you all for your responses.