I'm not sure if this has already made the rounds in RV circles, it is dated 2005 so may be old hat to some of you. For me, being the first time I'd seen it, I can't imagine ever shopping there again.
Terry and Jo said
04:37 PM Mar 3, 2009
Unfortunately, one can't even trust documentaries. Michael Moore has demonstrated that for us. More times than not, they are either fiction or are written with a bias.
I know that a segment of our population wants to smear WalMart, but they are the nation's largest employer and they provide goods that are less expensive. That is a boon for those with lower incomes.
As for being a drag on small private enterprises (mom and pop stores, if you will), when WalMart enters a market, smaller stores flock to locate near the WalMart. At least it is that way here in Oklahoma. Every new store ends up with at least two nearby small strip centers. If WalMart is so bad for small business, why do they show up?
While some decry that WalMart is a rotten employer, when a new store opens, they usually need less than 500 people for that store. But I know that when stores opened somewhere in Arizona and near Chicago a year or so ago, tens of thousands of people showed up to apply for jobs.
Also, remember that retailers will tend to stock what it is that their customers want. I hear people cry about how WalMart no longer seems to "buy American". Could it be that the customers are wanting products made elsewhere that are cheaper than American made goods?
As for the documentary, it has been around for some time. I remember seeing references to it at least two years ago. I haven't bothered to watch it, mostly because I was told that it was written by someone who had a bias against WalMart.
As for me, I have no problem whatsoever with shopping there. Should I need a "high end or high tech" item such as a new camera or TV, I do tend to go where salesmen are more knowledgeable about the features and benefits of the products I want to buy. So, I patronize more than one segment of the retail businesses.
Terry
Speedhitch said
07:03 PM Mar 3, 2009
You wait and see...Wally World is not the one forcing small business out of business it is the Federal Government raising taxes on businesses in general. They raise the minimum wage up and up until mom and pop cannot compete with the big boys. Wally World buys their goods from the cheapest markets to keep the prices down. They pass those savings on to us while the mom and pop store can only pass on the extra they have to pay in taxes and wages. When the federal government gets through with taxing the small businesses in this country and they slowly go out of business all you will have left is Wally World and then Michael Moore will be there looking for a job. No this is not Wally World against the small mom and pop stores...it is the servival of the fittest. With more and more government regulations coming down from Washington the companies here in the USA cannot compete with the foriegn markets who have no regulations. So we wonder why Wally World buys from China?? They have the cheapest goods and we demand the cheapest prices...Whos fault is that....our government. And let me tell you this we aint seen the end of this. When they get trough taxing us and our kids and grandkids we will be lucky if we can afford Wally World.
Speedy
RVDude said
07:33 PM Mar 3, 2009
BTW for another fun "documentary" see the McDonalds bashing (and humorously done) "Supersize Me" just make a special note of the guy's vegetarian lifestyle before he jumps full-tilt into McyDs with a formulaic – not hunger driven – consumption approach.
I'll take a slightly different twist. First off I do not in any way defend Upton Sinclair "The Jungle" business practices. But.... It's the very people in the communities that claim to despise Wally that cause the demise of the mom & pop when Wally moves it. Wally doesn't close the locals stores, it's the people in those communities who cause that by voting with their shopping actions. Every community votes with their dollars and for some reason those very same Wally despising people seem to buy at Wally and not their former mom & pops. THAT's what causes the mom & pops to fail - the people, not Wally! For some reason those people seem to find some form of value at Wally (be it price, variety, whatever...) that is GREATER than the value offered by their "beloved" mom & pops and hence take their money away from that they claim to want to protect. Funny isn't it? Money talks. Capitalism works. If people did not find value at a Wally they would not buy there and hence Wally would go out of business.
NorCal Dan said
08:14 PM Mar 3, 2009
I will do some investigating...but I would really like to hear from anyone who has seen the show and get their take on the whole thing. The segment on crime in the parking lots with clips from news stations all over the country should be easy enough to verify. What will be difficult to track down is the segment on their manufacturing plants in China and other countries. But there is plenty of other facts that if they prove to be true would be more than enough to sway me to shop elsewhere...
Racerguy said
08:40 PM Mar 3, 2009
Terry,Speedy and Dude said it best. I have tried to watch these Union Hit Pieces but could never get through one with out Thinking of Michael Moore and his outright lies masquarading as a Documentry.Take ANYTHING said in these pieces with a very large grain of salt. See you at Walmart.
Terry and Jo said
08:57 PM Mar 3, 2009
Research is needed. If we are to be intelligent shoppers, we must be open minded and look at every source of information that is available.
In that regard, I haven't a lot of knowledge about all the manufacturing facilities that retailers (big or small) purchase from. I do believe that very few actually "own" their own factories, so they tend to contract from certain facilities. Naturally, a retailer will order goods based on certain criteria. Sometimes that criteria is the problem and not necessarily the manufacturer. For instance, if a retailer tells a supplier that "widget a" must be "x" number of pounds, "y and z" size and have a definite price, then the manufacturer must meet that or not have a source to whom they can sell. In some respects, discount stores may have that factor to speak against them.
Speaking of parking lot security, I can speak with just a wee bit of authority because I do work for a major law enforcement agency. It isn't just Walmart parking lots that have problems. Criminals will target places that make their activity easier. In some areas, for instance, gangs are robbing and mugging Hispanics because they believe that if the Hispanic individual is illegally in the country, it is unlikely the victim will even report the crime.
THAT is why we must all be vigilant for ourselves and our fellow citizens. If nothing else, grab your cell phone and call the police if you see a crime committed against anyone. AND....have the courage and courtesy to stick around for the police to arrive so that your assistance is greatly multiplied. Just calling the police and then leaving helps little.
Terry
ahoweth said
07:37 AM Mar 4, 2009
I would only add one line of thought to what has already been said about "Documentaries."
The people who do documentaries do them for a reason and it is NOt to inform you with the whole truth. It IS to forward their agenda.
I personally put very little faith in what I see and hear from our media. Having worked for the government for 28 years and been personally involved in many things reported in the media, I can tell you they do not tell you the whole truth. I know because I was there and I was involved. Take what they tell you and show you with a grain of salt and know that they are attempting to guide your thoughts so that you will help further their agendas. I'm not saying that they outright lie but they do not tell or show the whole truth, especially if the whole truth would shed some bad light on their pet agenda.
I liken it to the Polar Bear documentaries. They like to show the Polar bear as cute and cuddly to make you feel sorry for them. Even Coca Cola has jumped on the band wagon with some of thier commercials on television. At times this is true they can be cute and cuddly but the full truth is that they are also one of the few species on the planet that are a vicious and efficient killer that will and do routinely hunt humans for food. Now I'm not saying that we should slaughter Polar bears or even want to see them become extinct, but hey, let us be honest and know what they are truly like so that people can be informed about what causes they chose to support.
thebearII said
11:33 AM Mar 4, 2009
It's the global economy thing.....
How many products or services we use everyday are 100% U.S. ?
-Most clothes are made overseas or the material comes from overseas.
-Most electronics are made in China or Taiwan
-Customer Service centers for computer manufacterers, Insurance companies, Banks, Credit Card companies...etc. have been outsourced to India & other countries
-Lawn Mowers, generators, small & major appliances, food, fresh vegetables, meat...the list goes on and on all come from other countries.
I had bought a half gallon of apple juice the other day and didn't notice until I got it home, that it had been stamped on the bottle in small print, indicating the juice was made from concentrate from China and the U.S.. It showed on the label made in the USA. So I guess if it's 90% China concentrate and 10% U.S. concentrate as long as it's mixed in the U.S. it's made in the USA.
WalMart isn't killing small town America. We are killing small town America by not demanding products and services be performed or made in the U.S. or Canada.
I remember my parents and others in the 50's, refused to buy anything that was made in Japan due to World War II/ Pearl Harbor. That changed when the Japanese cars hit the market, the price was just too good to pass up. It took Toyota 30 years to pass GM in sales.
Adjustments are being made towards a global economy and it will take time for things to improve for us.
We are letting this happen, but we can stop some of the things that are hurting our economy. Here's what a couple of local talkshow hosts are doing about the problems in California and the US.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/curtisgallery/3314367679/sizes/m/
http://www.kfiam640.com/pages/johnandkenshow/index.html
I've begun to pay attention to where my money is going, which companies I deal with that have outsourced, and what the tax dollars I contribute are being used for....I have begun changing my spending habits to try to keep the dollars in the US economy and put an end to wasteful spending in government. California spends 10 billion dollars a year in providing healthcare and eduction plus other services to illegal aliens, not legal aliens but illegal aliens (these are criminals, they have violated state and federal laws by coming across the border illegally). In the meantime, the state government wants to close down state parks due to budget shortfalls.
I say stop the services to the illegals and use the money for legal state citizen services, like state parks.
I didn't mean to jump up on the soapbox, but this has really become an issue for me when I see so many good people falling victims to this mess of an economy we are in. It seems the folks that cheat the system (big business, public figures and citizens) are being treated better than those of us who are honest and pay our taxes and bills and mortgages.....
Speedhitch said
12:50 PM Mar 4, 2009
Very well put Allen....we are lambs being led to slaughter. Documentary folks (Actors) and Politicians...who by the way for the most part have never had a real job....lead us down the path of their agendas and we follow like little sheep. How in the world did we make it after the dinosaurs went extinct? We will cause human suffering to go on but let an animal fall pray to the mean and terrible human and all these folks come out of the woodwork...why is that ?
I for one don't put much count in global warming or the plight of the White Owl...Sorry
Speedy
flyone said
12:53 PM Mar 4, 2009
NorCal Dan, like others have said the documentaries have an agenda. I have not seen this documentary of which you speak, but did it say anything about how many jobs Walmart provides here in the US. How about in the New Orleans area after the storm (This I believe was after the doc was made) did they mention the fact that Walmart open it doors and allowed people to take anything they needed, they even shipped in extra stuff just to hand out to people in need. Everybody talks about places goughing people after a storm but did anybody say anything about wally world giving there stuff away. Also I know for a fact that they work really hard at keeping their prices down so people can afford to buy there things. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying that wally world is the be all end all but in my opinion they are not nearly as bad as some people make them out to be. I know a person who worked at a local wally world for 20 years is now retired and living the good life.
Flyone
NorCal Dan said
12:56 PM Mar 4, 2009
I had hoped to raise awareness about the issues surrounding Walmart, especially the safety of their parking lots (easily researched and verified). But I can see that isn't going to happen as everybody has made up their minds.
I would like to ask the moderator to delete or lock this thread.
Sorry to have bothered ya'all with this...
Tim & Robyn said
03:33 PM Mar 4, 2009
I went to the link provided and didn't see anything about the safety, or lack thereof, of Walmart parking lots.
As far as the global economy is concerned, it has ever been thus.... the British relied on the 'sugar islands' (those little dots in the Carribean that were once their colonies) to pay for their side of the American Revolution back in the 1700's... just finished reading a most boring book about that called 'An Empire DIvided'.
I've also just about finished reading a book called 'Basic Economics' by Thomas Sowell. I recommend it to all of you. Basically, it's premise is that there is not enough of anything for everyone to have as much of it as they would like. Over and over again he repeats the phrase 'scarce resources that have alternative uses'.
What economics is about is how those scarce resources are allocated. The book goes into great detail about how free markets work (and how government interference doesn't - does that ring any bells? Can you say 'Community Reinvestment Act', required bad loans, housing bubble, housing burst, economic chaos??)
At any rate, Walmart provides goods at prices that people are willing to pay. Why should I pay more somewhere else when I have other NEEDS (like, say, health insurance) that I can pay for by saving money by shopping at Walmart?
Judy said
04:52 PM Mar 4, 2009
Dan, I don't think as you say bothered us with this thread, its just as you can see Wally is here to stay at least for now. Its one stop shopping for us full-time RV'ers and we seem to like that. southwestjudy
thebearII said
05:08 PM Mar 4, 2009
NorCal Dan,
Sorry to have taken a tangent in my previous post.
I remember seeing a documentary on WalMart a few years back, it seemed to be aimed at how WalMart has helped kill main street businesses in many small towns.
I don't know if it's the same documentary you wrote about.
I have heard of crime in parking lots and rest stops used by RV'ers and truckers for lay overs. Criminals will always choose an area where it's easy to commit crimes against others.
Easy escape is one of the criteria a criminal will use in targeting an area. Since most Walmarts, rest and truck stops are located near or on interstates or bigger highways it makes it easy to make a clean get away.
A recent story about a Walmart in the San Diego area indicated a gang of several people would work together. They posted lookouts inside & outside the store, the inside criminals, usually a man & woman, sometimes with a child would act like they were shopping. They would identify shoppers that seemed like a good target, usually elderly folks buying more expensive items. They would call out to the lookouts outside and describe the target. The lookouts would follow the target out to their car and offer to help load the purchase if it's a big item or strike up a conversation. When the coast was clear they would rob the target.
Sushidog said
05:20 PM Mar 4, 2009
Walmart is not a good company - or a bad company. Companies are amoral, their function is to reward their share holders/owners for their investment.
I shop at Walmart, and I appreciate the fact that they let RV'rs overnight at most of their stores. However I will not buy toys or garments sold at Walmart which are made in China or other 3rd world countries by children forced to work long hours in adverse conditions. Sweatshops still exist, and Walmart isn't the one keeping them open - we, the consumer are. They are only trying to supply the market with what consumers want.
Now I'm sure that if good Christian people knew the truth of the matter, they wouldn't buy these things. But seriously, do you really think you can get clothes at the price they charge that isn't made by someone making less than 50 cents/hr? We instinctively know when something is "too good to be true", but often turn a blind eye to the problem.
Surely a fine company like Walmart wouldn't knowingly cause children to be abused, we rationalize. Large companies generally don't consider moral issues, just legal ones. Their mission statement include 2 things, making a profit and serving the community in which they are located. Walmart appears to do both well. Children in China, Indonesia or Mexico are not their concern. Companies who "do the right thing" ie. going green, do so because they believe that they can ultimately sell more goods and make higher profits.
It is we, the educated consumer, who must choose right from wrong. Many of us just don't think, as greed overcomes our rational. But a bargain is not really a bargain if it causes others to suffer. Read the label before you decide what to buy, wherever you shop.
RVDude said
06:04 PM Mar 4, 2009
norcal - your point on awareness is well taken. Everywhere one goes one must be aware of their surroundings.
That said, I have parked overnight at 58 Wal-Marts over the past few years and NEVER even came close to being concerned at a single one. Usually there is 24hr security and 24hr lights. What could be safer? Frankly, I have been in a few campgrounds (dark, no guards, no lights, far off the beaten path, etc) where I was far more concerned.
There is a continuously updated first-hand source of info that might be useful, http://overnightrvparking.com/ which although there is a nominal annual fee, this is the ONLY source that provide screened and verified first-hand reports. Highly valuable info.
-- Edited by RVDude at 18:07, 2009-03-04
Terry and Jo said
08:33 PM Mar 4, 2009
All very interesting comments.
But, let me add a little more perspective. There are a lot of businesses that do not provide parking lot security. So, for me, that is not a major factor.
Now for a more touchy perspective. Please do not think I condone the following:
Having seen the conditions that many in foreign country live under, it could well be that a child working is NOT such a bad thing. We don't necessarily live in those cultures and know how people that live there think. In some countries, it might be better for a child to be working in a factory instead of trying to rummage through garbage dumps both for food and for items to sell.
While I don't like the idea of a child working to provide me with what we consider an everyday "use and throw away" item, if my purchase of said item helps to provide a family in those areas a "better" life in their culture, then I would have to reconsider my priorities.
Just a thought.
Terry
mailman01 said
07:43 AM Mar 5, 2009
Terry, as I read this thread the thought that was running through my mind concerning "child labor" was summed up by your last post. Were it not for corporations such as Wal-Mart needing their products and giving them a job, as menial as we Americans may see it, what would these "children" be doing to survive? We are a different culture with different values. What may be perceived as slave labor in this country may well be a family/life supporting wage in a Third World country...I speak for myself, but I go to Wal-Mart for a purpose. As shameful as it may sound, I don't give too much thought to the Mom/Pop store that may be suffering by my not shopping there or the "child" that may have had the paying job of creating my purchase. If Wally has what I want at the price I am willing to pay, I buy it...Thereby, relieving me of my money, providing Wally with more spending money and ultimately, the little tyke in some far off land a little income for his/her labors...Just had to throw my stuff out there....Marty
traveljunkie said
09:01 PM Mar 14, 2009
Norcal Dan - saw the movie a few years ago and agree that it is very compelling. I don't want to go into detail around my decision not to shop at Walmart on this board. As you've already mentioned, many folks have made up their mind and I really don't think I'm going to change it. I will comment that I've researched this topic greatly and I've made the personal decision not to shop at Walmart.
I agree with Sushidog's comments, 'It is we, the educated consumer, who must choose right from wrong. Many of us just don't think, as greed overcomes our rational. But a bargain is not really a bargain if it causes others to suffer. Read the label before you decide what to buy, wherever you shop.'
Judy the Other said
12:38 PM Mar 15, 2009
NorCal Dan,
Amazing the twists and turns these threads can take, huh?
"as greed overcomes" -and we are surprised and angered by our current national financial situation.
-- Edited by Judy the Other on Sunday 15th of March 2009 12:41:20 PM
http://www.walmartmovie.com/
I'm not sure if this has already made the rounds in RV circles, it is dated 2005 so may be old hat to some of you. For me, being the first time I'd seen it, I can't imagine ever shopping there again.
I know that a segment of our population wants to smear WalMart, but they are the nation's largest employer and they provide goods that are less expensive. That is a boon for those with lower incomes.
As for being a drag on small private enterprises (mom and pop stores, if you will), when WalMart enters a market, smaller stores flock to locate near the WalMart. At least it is that way here in Oklahoma. Every new store ends up with at least two nearby small strip centers. If WalMart is so bad for small business, why do they show up?
While some decry that WalMart is a rotten employer, when a new store opens, they usually need less than 500 people for that store. But I know that when stores opened somewhere in Arizona and near Chicago a year or so ago, tens of thousands of people showed up to apply for jobs.
Also, remember that retailers will tend to stock what it is that their customers want. I hear people cry about how WalMart no longer seems to "buy American". Could it be that the customers are wanting products made elsewhere that are cheaper than American made goods?
As for the documentary, it has been around for some time. I remember seeing references to it at least two years ago. I haven't bothered to watch it, mostly because I was told that it was written by someone who had a bias against WalMart.
As for me, I have no problem whatsoever with shopping there. Should I need a "high end or high tech" item such as a new camera or TV, I do tend to go where salesmen are more knowledgeable about the features and benefits of the products I want to buy. So, I patronize more than one segment of the retail businesses.
Terry
I'll take a slightly different twist. First off I do not in any way defend Upton Sinclair "The Jungle" business practices. But.... It's the very people in the communities that claim to despise Wally that cause the demise of the mom & pop when Wally moves it. Wally doesn't close the locals stores, it's the people in those communities who cause that by voting with their shopping actions. Every community votes with their dollars and for some reason those very same Wally despising people seem to buy at Wally and not their former mom & pops. THAT's what causes the mom & pops to fail - the people, not Wally! For some reason those people seem to find some form of value at Wally (be it price, variety, whatever...) that is GREATER than the value offered by their "beloved" mom & pops and hence take their money away from that they claim to want to protect. Funny isn't it? Money talks. Capitalism works. If people did not find value at a Wally they would not buy there and hence Wally would go out of business.
In that regard, I haven't a lot of knowledge about all the manufacturing facilities that retailers (big or small) purchase from. I do believe that very few actually "own" their own factories, so they tend to contract from certain facilities. Naturally, a retailer will order goods based on certain criteria. Sometimes that criteria is the problem and not necessarily the manufacturer. For instance, if a retailer tells a supplier that "widget a" must be "x" number of pounds, "y and z" size and have a definite price, then the manufacturer must meet that or not have a source to whom they can sell. In some respects, discount stores may have that factor to speak against them.
Speaking of parking lot security, I can speak with just a wee bit of authority because I do work for a major law enforcement agency. It isn't just Walmart parking lots that have problems. Criminals will target places that make their activity easier. In some areas, for instance, gangs are robbing and mugging Hispanics because they believe that if the Hispanic individual is illegally in the country, it is unlikely the victim will even report the crime.
THAT is why we must all be vigilant for ourselves and our fellow citizens. If nothing else, grab your cell phone and call the police if you see a crime committed against anyone. AND....have the courage and courtesy to stick around for the police to arrive so that your assistance is greatly multiplied. Just calling the police and then leaving helps little.
Terry
The people who do documentaries do them for a reason and it is NOt to inform you with the whole truth. It IS to forward their agenda.
I personally put very little faith in what I see and hear from our media. Having worked for the government for 28 years and been personally involved in many things reported in the media, I can tell you they do not tell you the whole truth. I know because I was there and I was involved. Take what they tell you and show you with a grain of salt and know that they are attempting to guide your thoughts so that you will help further their agendas. I'm not saying that they outright lie but they do not tell or show the whole truth, especially if the whole truth would shed some bad light on their pet agenda.
I liken it to the Polar Bear documentaries. They like to show the Polar bear as cute and cuddly to make you feel sorry for them. Even Coca Cola has jumped on the band wagon with some of thier commercials on television. At times this is true they can be cute and cuddly but the full truth is that they are also one of the few species on the planet that are a vicious and efficient killer that will and do routinely hunt humans for food. Now I'm not saying that we should slaughter Polar bears or even want to see them become extinct, but hey, let us be honest and know what they are truly like so that people can be informed about what causes they chose to support.
Flyone
As far as the global economy is concerned, it has ever been thus.... the British relied on the 'sugar islands' (those little dots in the Carribean that were once their colonies) to pay for their side of the American Revolution back in the 1700's... just finished reading a most boring book about that called 'An Empire DIvided'.
I've also just about finished reading a book called 'Basic Economics' by Thomas Sowell. I recommend it to all of you. Basically, it's premise is that there is not enough of anything for everyone to have as much of it as they would like. Over and over again he repeats the phrase 'scarce resources that have alternative uses'.
What economics is about is how those scarce resources are allocated. The book goes into great detail about how free markets work (and how government interference doesn't - does that ring any bells? Can you say 'Community Reinvestment Act', required bad loans, housing bubble, housing burst, economic chaos??)
At any rate, Walmart provides goods at prices that people are willing to pay. Why should I pay more somewhere else when I have other NEEDS (like, say, health insurance) that I can pay for by saving money by shopping at Walmart?
southwestjudy
That said, I have parked overnight at 58 Wal-Marts over the past few years and NEVER even came close to being concerned at a single one. Usually there is 24hr security and 24hr lights. What could be safer? Frankly, I have been in a few campgrounds (dark, no guards, no lights, far off the beaten path, etc) where I was far more concerned.
There is a continuously updated first-hand source of info that might be useful, http://overnightrvparking.com/ which although there is a nominal annual fee, this is the ONLY source that provide screened and verified first-hand reports. Highly valuable info.
-- Edited by RVDude at 18:07, 2009-03-04
But, let me add a little more perspective. There are a lot of businesses that do not provide parking lot security. So, for me, that is not a major factor.
Now for a more touchy perspective. Please do not think I condone the following:
Having seen the conditions that many in foreign country live under, it could well be that a child working is NOT such a bad thing. We don't necessarily live in those cultures and know how people that live there think. In some countries, it might be better for a child to be working in a factory instead of trying to rummage through garbage dumps both for food and for items to sell.
While I don't like the idea of a child working to provide me with what we consider an everyday "use and throw away" item, if my purchase of said item helps to provide a family in those areas a "better" life in their culture, then I would have to reconsider my priorities.
Just a thought.
Terry
I agree with Sushidog's comments, 'It is we, the educated consumer, who must choose right from wrong. Many of us just don't think, as greed overcomes our rational. But a bargain is not really a bargain if it causes others to suffer. Read the label before you decide what to buy, wherever you shop.'
Amazing the twists and turns these threads can take, huh?
"as greed overcomes" -and we are surprised and angered by our current national financial situation.
-- Edited by Judy the Other on Sunday 15th of March 2009 12:41:20 PM