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Post Info TOPIC: Ram 4500


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Ram 4500


 I realize the popular Ram's are either the 3500 or the 5500 but we are looking at a 5th wheel that is borderline to much for a 3500 (probably really over) but certainly under what a 5500 can handle. Today I called a dealer to inquire about a 55oo and told him roughly what weight's we would be towing and he tossed out the 4500 idea saying it would easily handle the load and not have a de-tuned engine like a 5500 plus have a better ride when not loaded.

 Any input on this? 



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2014 Tiffin Phaeton 42LH "for sale"

"40' New Horizon 5th wheel on order"

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http://daveanddiane.wordpress.com/2012/07/

 



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Could be wrong but any of the 4500/5500's are detuned compared to a 3500, you may want to talk to another person.

What weight are you wanting to tow? I tow 23-25k behind my 3500 DRW RAM with 4.10's and AISIN. Handles the load VERY well. I am at my RAWR, under FAWR and under combined. I have the Factory rear air ride. The truck sets the same with or without a load.

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I looked up the engine specs on the 3500 and 4500/5500 Ram trucks and they both have the Cummins 6.7 liter inline 6 engine. The rated torque for the 3500 is 930 ft. lbs. with the 4500/5500 rated at 900 ft. lbs. The 900 ft. lbs. is what the Super C motorhomes are rated at so I'm thinking that this may be a rating difference between commercial trucks (the 4500/5500) and light trucks (3500). In any case it's only a 3.33% difference which I wouldn't think would be material. In any case the engine torque/hp is controlled by the ECM which can be flashed by a Cummins dealer. If you really have to know the difference I would call Cummins directly and don't rely on the dealer. Just my couple of pennies.

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Methinks even a detuned 6.7 Cummins is more than enough to do the job for a 5er toting RVer. I've never read anywhere of somebody complaining that their 4500/5500 Ram wasn't up to the task.

Plenty of chassis cab 2017s still laying around dealer lots for a song... add ~20K for a hauler bed.... total about the same as a new 2018 3500 PU DRW with all the bells and whistles. Just a thought.

 



-- Edited by BiggarView on Tuesday 28th of August 2018 10:57:02 AM

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Brian ... I'm sure you are right about the availability of chassis cabs. For me the problem is (unless you order one) they are spec'ed out to be work trucks. Often cloth seats, bench seats, low level of equipment, etc. If none of that matters to you then they would be a great choice, but that's not me ... sigh ... I wish I could find happiness in a basic truck, but I'm destined to pay for all the "bells an whistles".



-- Edited by RonC on Tuesday 28th of August 2018 11:44:48 AM

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2016 Ford F350, King Ranch, DRW, 3.73's, 4x4, CC, 6.7 Powerstroke, remote control air lift system

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Here are the cab and chassis specs for 3500-5500


6.7L Cummins® Turbo Diesel

HORSEPOWER 320 hp

TORQUE 650 lb-ft


6.7L High Output Cummins Turbo Diesel

HORSEPOWER 325 hp

TORQUE 750 lb-ft




Here is the 3500 Pickup SRW/DRW specs

HORSEPOWER 385 hp

TORQUE 930 lb-ft

So there is a LOT of power difference!



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"In any case the engine torque/hp is controlled by the ECM which can be flashed by a Cummins dealer."

You will NOT find a Cummins Dealer that will tweak the HP and TQ in a RAM/Cummins truck.

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RonC wrote:

Brian ... I'm sure you are right about the availability of chassis cabs. For me the problem is (unless you order one) they are spec'ed out to be work trucks. Often cloth seats, bench seats, low level of equipment, etc. If none of that matters to you then they would be a great choice, but that's not me ... sigh ... I wish I could find happiness in a basic truck, but I'm destined to pay for all the "bells an whistles".



-- Edited by RonC on Tuesday 28th of August 2018 11:44:48 AM


 Ordering is a good thing.  Our 5500HD interior and up-fit matches anything one would desire including the same "stuff" one can get in a 3500. When one is building a 5500 there is a lot more options to the hauler bed situation.  IMO, at 5500 is not one "off the lot" regardless.  Make it the way you want it and pay for what you want.  Not what the dealership ordered.  Much different animal.

My 2 cents.



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Classy Chassis RV Hauler Bed Conversion \ Aux Fuel Tank 



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Short book on 4500's 5500's HD Rams:

Both are "commercial trucks."  Like Ford's F-450 (commercial) and F-550 they are indeed de-tuned and limited to 330 HP (yes 330)  and 750 lb ft. torque.  Somehow that power has managed to move our 34,000 lbs. all over the US and a lot of Canada with out issue including up and down east and west coast mountains. I never give HP a second thought as the extra weight and capacities of the truck make it a pleasure to tow with.

Commercial trucks are de-tuned for 24/7/365 operation without being damaged by led footed hired drivers who may or may not have a financial interest in proper care of the engine and transmission.  Been done that way "forever."  But yep, you can "chip" the engine and at that point the warranty is zero.  BTW, the torque curves are different for the commercial Ram as well.  Flatter torque curve.

The HP wars continue.  But so far after pulling the exact same trailer with two different trucks, one with 396HP and our current 5500HD with 330HP I honestly never notice the difference.  Again, we're 34,000 combined and can overtake semis on the mountains and run at 70 all day if we want.  Don't do that often, but can without issue when necessary as I had to today when bucking a 23 MPH quartering headwind to outrun a hail storm. No big deal.  (Yes, the trailer tires, being G114's, are rated to 75 MPH.)

For towing the 5500HD is the best truck I have ever owned and that includes professional service.  I can totally forget about rear axle loads, how much water, fuel, tools, etc. I'm loading on.  The truck tows the same regardless and because it is geared to tow it just loafs along.  Nothing get hot, etc.  There is just no "drama" when towing with this truck.

There is zero "wrong" with a 3500 Ram. So let's not start that discussion.   But it is just not the same truck as the 5500HD as one runs out of rear axle rating long before running out of combined rating.  It's almost always the rear axle load that is the problem be it a Ram 3500 or an F-450.  It's a choice and in my case I choose to have the extra rating and comfort of the larger truck.  Again, a choice and my opinions. For those that are good with a 3500 truck.  Good for you.  Glad you have what you want.

 

 

 



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😏

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2016 Ford F350, King Ranch, DRW, 3.73's, 4x4, CC, 6.7 Powerstroke, remote control air lift system

2017 Durango Gold 381REF (41 ft, 5 slides), MORryde IS, 8K Disc brakes, GY G114  LR H Tires, 27,320 lbs CGVW

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Thanks for the comments. I have done some searching for 5500's and 4500's that might be sitting around but as someone mentioned all of them were cloth with no creature comforts and we would want a Laramie. I will say I saw one that someone backed out on as a order that went back to stock but it was gone within 3 days LOL!!


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2014 Tiffin Phaeton 42LH "for sale"

"40' New Horizon 5th wheel on order"

2016 F150 Lariat, our current toad

"2018 Ram 5500 being built"  

http://daveanddiane.wordpress.com/2012/07/

 



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Hdrider wrote:

Thanks for the comments. I have done some searching for 5500's and 4500's that might be sitting around but as someone mentioned all of them were cloth with no creature comforts and we would want a Laramie. I will say I saw one that someone backed out on as a order that went back to stock but it was gone within 3 days LOL!!


 They have become very popular for a variety of good reasons.  Tom Martin, at Classy Chassis, usually has a couple of them in the pipe line, all speced out with the nice interiors, etc. To my knowledge he only orders 5500HDs for stock for reasons stated above.  Most want the capacity and comfort.



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2014 New Horizons Majestic F37RLTSS 96

2016 RAM 5500HD \ 4-Wheel Drive \ Link Air Ride
Classy Chassis RV Hauler Bed Conversion \ Aux Fuel Tank 



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"Somehow that power has managed to move our 34,000 lbs. all over the US and a lot of Canada with out issue including up and down east and west coast mountains."

It's called gearing!

I am towing a combined 33-35k and I am at my RAWR of 9,750#. My RV is a double axle unit at 25% pin weight. If it were a triple axle as it should have been I would be well under my RAWR.

NOT criticizing having a MD truck at all! The reality is the 3500's are in MD territory compared to trucks just from a few years ago. They simply keep the 14k GVWR the same for licensing and insurance purposes.

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Cummins12V98 wrote:

"Somehow that power has managed to move our 34,000 lbs. all over the US and a lot of Canada with out issue including up and down east and west coast mountains."

It's called gearing!

I am towing a combined 33-35k and I am at my RAWR of 9,750#. My RV is a double axle unit at 25% pin weight. If it were a triple axle as it should have been I would be well under my RAWR.

NOT criticizing having a MD truck at all! The reality is the 3500's are in MD territory compared to trucks just from a few years ago. They simply keep the 14k GVWR the same for licensing and insurance purposes.


 Gearing, yes it is and I used to move 60,000+ lbs across the US with only 250 HP in a Pete and that was with an 18 speed, split axle Fuller transmission. But to the point, I am not maxed out with a 4,700 lbs 20% pin and still have plenty of rear axle capacity left over, larger brakes, etc. So it is a choice and one we are very happy with. Your happy with yours.  Good.  I ran the numbers on a 3500HD (and a F-450)  and with a hauler bed plus what I carry, including aux fuel, etc., it would have been overloaded on the rear axle among other limitations for my application.

I know all about the 14K number insurance number.  But that's not the point.  Its the RAWR and the headroom I prefer plus the increased ratio of the truck weight to the trailer giving better control.  All this is a choice and giving information to those that ask.  Many have done that and others can choose as best suits their needs.



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2014 New Horizons Majestic F37RLTSS 96

2016 RAM 5500HD \ 4-Wheel Drive \ Link Air Ride
Classy Chassis RV Hauler Bed Conversion \ Aux Fuel Tank 



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Hdrider wrote:

 I realize the popular Ram's are either the 3500 or the 5500 but we are looking at a 5th wheel that is borderline to much for a 3500 (probably really over) but certainly under what a 5500 can handle. Today I called a dealer to inquire about a 55oo and told him roughly what weight's we would be towing and he tossed out the 4500 idea saying it would easily handle the load and not have a de-tuned engine like a 5500 plus have a better ride when not loaded.

 Any input on this? 


 

Dave and Diane,

As has been mentioned many times here on the forums, it is always best for one to do their own research on the capability of trucks.  This is one of those cases where one must be leery of the comments of dealers, because there are times that all they are doing is trying to sell a vehicle, and may very well be one that they have on the lot.

This following story is "dated" as it happened to us back in 2008-2009.  We were researching for our tow vehicle and I was looking at almost everything as a possibility.  I went by a Dodge dealer because he had a "boatload" of trucks on his lot.  Told him what weights we would be towing and he tried to sell me on a cab and chassis Dodge 4500.  He practically swore that he had sold one to a customer previously that was having "no troubles" towing his fifth wheel RV.  In order to try to convince me, he even called that customer on the phone to ask about how the truck was working for him.  In essence, the buyer was pleased with the 4500's abilities.  Then I asked what his trailer weighed.  The guy didn't even know for sure, but he thought around 16,500 lbs.

That didn't sit well with the dealer at that point, because I had already told him that the truck needed to be able to handle 18,500 lbs and the 4500's specs didn't hold up to the weight factor.  Again, remember that was about 10 years ago now, so the specs on the 4500 may have improved.  But, you still need to do the research and you seem to be getting good answers here.

Terry



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To be clear, with my load I would own a 4500/5500 if I wanted a HaulerBed because they weigh MUCH more than my Dually bed and toolbox. I am at my RAWR that is SAE rated and have zero issues towing what i have. If a person thinks they need a safety cushion that's fine but the FACT is there's already a safety cushion in all these ratings.

People need to be well informed IMHO.

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I wanted to touch base on this thread as we have made a choice on a truck. After what seems like way to much research (I seem to have bad habit of over researching things) we have placed a deposit on a 2018 Ram 5500 and Classy Chassis has already installed a Kelderman suspension on the rear and is working on the hauler body.

We looked at and drove a 2015 F550 yesterday that already had a Utility Body Werks hauler bed and Kelderman suspension installed that would have saved us a ton of money but it didn't have a exhaust brake which is very important to me and I probably would have had to switch out the gears because it had 4.30's. I searched but there just isn't a aftermarket exhaust brake system available for the 2015 F550 it seems. Plus our new 5th wheel would have been over the GCWR of that particular truck anyway.

Regardless, thanks for all of the comments.




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Dave & Diane 

2014 Tiffin Phaeton 42LH "for sale"

"40' New Horizon 5th wheel on order"

2016 F150 Lariat, our current toad

"2018 Ram 5500 being built"  

http://daveanddiane.wordpress.com/2012/07/

 



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Hdrider wrote:

I wanted to touch base on this thread as we have made a choice on a truck. After what seems like way to much research (I seem to have bad habit of over researching things) we have placed a deposit on a 2018 Ram 5500 and Classy Chassis has already installed a Kelderman suspension on the rear and is working on the hauler body.

We looked at and drove a 2015 F550 yesterday that already had a Utility Body Werks hauler bed and Kelderman suspension installed that would have saved us a ton of money but it didn't have a exhaust brake which is very important to me and I probably would have had to switch out the gears because it had 4.30's. I searched but there just isn't a aftermarket exhaust brake system available for the 2015 F550 it seems. Plus our new 5th wheel would have been over the GCWR of that particular truck anyway.

Regardless, thanks for all of the comments.



 FWIW and reference for those reading along, the first time you came down a mountain with the 2015 F-550 you would be displeased regardless of the "savings" - and the same going up - because the 2015 F-550 has significantly less HP and torque then your choice and no exhaust brake as you commented.  You are correct about having to change out the rear gears with the trailer you are (apparently) having built.  I continue to be impressed having just driven a number of state roads "scenic roads" with 10% and better grades (had one 14% by the sign) out west in Utah pulling the trailer.  No, we don't go up 10%+ grades at the speed limit.  No one will towing the weight many of us are pulling.  But there is no drama going up and more significantly no drama coming down with the highly effective exhaust brake. (I never turn it off.)  The truck simply doesn't overheat and properly driven coming down those inclines, without significant brake application, is a comfortable affair.  Having the extra weight of the 5500HD truck vs. the trailer weight also provides additional control.  Full up with fuel, tools, air-ride hitch and stuff it will weight 12,000+ lbs.  Linda an I continue to be impressed with the truck now approaching 50,000 miles.  FWIW, we continue to be pleased towing and touring as well.  Just our experience and we do have a lot of that.



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2014 New Horizons Majestic F37RLTSS 96

2016 RAM 5500HD \ 4-Wheel Drive \ Link Air Ride
Classy Chassis RV Hauler Bed Conversion \ Aux Fuel Tank 



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Terry and Jo wrote:
Hdrider wrote:

 I realize the popular Ram's are either the 3500 or the 5500 but we are looking at a 5th wheel that is borderline to much for a 3500 (probably really over) but certainly under what a 5500 can handle. Today I called a dealer to inquire about a 55oo and told him roughly what weight's we would be towing and he tossed out the 4500 idea saying it would easily handle the load and not have a de-tuned engine like a 5500 plus have a better ride when not loaded.

 Any input on this? 


 

Dave and Diane,

As has been mentioned many times here on the forums, it is always best for one to do their own research on the capability of trucks.  This is one of those cases where one must be leery of the comments of dealers, because there are times that all they are doing is trying to sell a vehicle, and may very well be one that they have on the lot.

This following story is "dated" as it happened to us back in 2008-2009.  We were researching for our tow vehicle and I was looking at almost everything as a possibility.  I went by a Dodge dealer because he had a "boatload" of trucks on his lot.  Told him what weights we would be towing and he tried to sell me on a cab and chassis Dodge 4500.  He practically swore that he had sold one to a customer previously that was having "no troubles" towing his fifth wheel RV.  In order to try to convince me, he even called that customer on the phone to ask about how the truck was working for him.  In essence, the buyer was pleased with the 4500's abilities.  Then I asked what his trailer weighed.  The guy didn't even know for sure, but he thought around 16,500 lbs.

That didn't sit well with the dealer at that point, because I had already told him that the truck needed to be able to handle 18,500 lbs and the 4500's specs didn't hold up to the weight factor.  Again, remember that was about 10 years ago now, so the specs on the 4500 may have improved.  But, you still need to do the research and you seem to be getting good answers here.

Terry


 Yes, very dated as you say.  The difference between the 2013 and newer Ram trucks and the earlier ones is daylight and dark.  Totally different offering and equipment including the transmissions.  Complete redesign beginning with model year 2013.  But you do make my point - never trust what a dealer says as to capacities and capabilities regardless of the brand. {Grin}



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Bill & Linda
2014 New Horizons Majestic F37RLTSS 96

2016 RAM 5500HD \ 4-Wheel Drive \ Link Air Ride
Classy Chassis RV Hauler Bed Conversion \ Aux Fuel Tank 



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Bill and Linda wrote:
Hdrider wrote:

I wanted to touch base on this thread as we have made a choice on a truck. After what seems like way to much research (I seem to have bad habit of over researching things) we have placed a deposit on a 2018 Ram 5500 and Classy Chassis has already installed a Kelderman suspension on the rear and is working on the hauler body.

We looked at and drove a 2015 F550 yesterday that already had a Utility Body Werks hauler bed and Kelderman suspension installed that would have saved us a ton of money but it didn't have a exhaust brake which is very important to me and I probably would have had to switch out the gears because it had 4.30's. I searched but there just isn't a aftermarket exhaust brake system available for the 2015 F550 it seems. Plus our new 5th wheel would have been over the GCWR of that particular truck anyway.

Regardless, thanks for all of the comments.



 FWIW and reference for those reading along, the first time you came down a mountain with the 2015 F-550 you would be displeased regardless of the "savings" - and the same going up - because the 2015 F-550 has significantly less HP and torque then your choice and no exhaust brake as you commented.  You are correct about having to change out the rear gears with the trailer you are (apparently) having built.  I continue to be impressed having just driven a number of state roads "scenic roads" with 10% and better grades (had one 14% by the sign) out west in Utah pulling the trailer.  No, we don't go up 10%+ grades at the speed limit.  No one will towing the weight many of us are pulling.  But there is no drama going up and more significantly no drama coming down with the highly effective exhaust brake. (I never turn it off.)  The truck simply doesn't overheat and properly driven coming down those inclines, without significant brake application, is a comfortable affair.  Having the extra weight of the 5500HD truck vs. the trailer weight also provides additional control.  Full up with fuel, tools, air-ride hitch and stuff it will weight 12,000+ lbs.  Linda an I continue to be impressed with the truck now approaching 50,000 miles.  FWIW, we continue to be pleased towing and touring as well.  Just our experience and we do have a lot of that.

Here is a link to the specs from Ford for a 2015 F-550 cab.chassis. https://www.fleet.ford.com/resources/ford/general/pdf/brochures/2015/2015%20F-Series%20Spec%20Sheets_LoRes_Part5.pdf As you can see under powertrain, the diesel comes with an exhaust brake standard.

 



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I'm no expert obviously or I would have been asking all the questions but it says integrated engine brake/tow haul mode. I didn't see mention of exhaust brake andI can assure you that the 2015 truck I drove had no exhaust brake. On top of that the Tow Haul/engine brake felt absolutely nothing like the Ram 4500 I test drove with the exhaust brake.

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Dave & Diane 

2014 Tiffin Phaeton 42LH "for sale"

"40' New Horizon 5th wheel on order"

2016 F150 Lariat, our current toad

"2018 Ram 5500 being built"  

http://daveanddiane.wordpress.com/2012/07/

 



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travlingman wrote:
Bill and Linda wrote:
Here is a link to the specs from Ford for a 2015 F-550 cab.chassis. https://www.fleet.ford.com/resources/ford/general/pdf/brochures/2015/2015%20F-Series%20Spec%20Sheets_LoRes_Part5.pdf As you can see under powertrain, the diesel comes with an exhaust brake standard.

 


 Yea I acknowledge it was in the specs, but having driven one, it basically didn't work or work effectively. Linda even commented on that during our tests.  It was supposedly a "full-time" exhaust brake without an on-off control.  But was generally ineffective when compared to other offerings we were considering.  In 2017, I believe, Ford changed out and upgraded the turbo (which is actually used for the exhaust brake) and also added an on-off control.  It was better, but not as effective as the Ram (or GM) by a wide margin when I test drove the vehicles.  This was true for the pickups as well as to the turbo change out.  Never understood why it was relatively ineffective.  Should have been, it was the same turbo GM used.  Not sure about the Ram.  Have some speculation based on some reports but that's really neither here or now.



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Bill & Linda
2014 New Horizons Majestic F37RLTSS 96

2016 RAM 5500HD \ 4-Wheel Drive \ Link Air Ride
Classy Chassis RV Hauler Bed Conversion \ Aux Fuel Tank 



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Hdrider wrote:

I'm no expert obviously or I would have been asking all the questions but it says integrated engine brake/tow haul mode. I didn't see mention of exhaust brake andI can assure you that the 2015 truck I drove had no exhaust brake. On top of that the Tow Haul/engine brake felt absolutely nothing like the Ram 4500 I test drove with the exhaust brake.


 Yep.



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Bill & Linda
2014 New Horizons Majestic F37RLTSS 96

2016 RAM 5500HD \ 4-Wheel Drive \ Link Air Ride
Classy Chassis RV Hauler Bed Conversion \ Aux Fuel Tank 



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Bill and Linda wrote:
travlingman wrote:
Bill and Linda wrote:
Here is a link to the specs from Ford for a 2015 F-550 cab.chassis. https://www.fleet.ford.com/resources/ford/general/pdf/brochures/2015/2015%20F-Series%20Spec%20Sheets_LoRes_Part5.pdf As you can see under powertrain, the diesel comes with an exhaust brake standard.

 


 Yea I acknowledge it was in the specs, but having driven one, it basically didn't work or work effectively. Linda even commented on that during our tests.  It was supposedly a "full-time" exhaust brake without an on-off control.  But was generally ineffective when compared to other offerings we were considering.  In 2017, I believe, Ford changed out and upgraded the turbo (which is actually used for the exhaust brake) and also added an on-off control.  It was better, but not as effective as the Ram (or GM) by a wide margin when I test drove the vehicles.  This was true for the pickups as well as to the turbo change out.  Never understood why it was relatively ineffective.  Should have been, it was the same turbo GM used.  Not sure about the Ram.  Have some speculation based on some reports but that's really neither here or now.

Actually Ford changed the turbo on the pickups in 2015, not sure c/c. Here is the one ton pickup challenge done for that year. http://special-reports.pickuptrucks.com/2014-ultimate-one-ton-hd-challenge.html As you can see in the results for the downhill tests which used the exhaust braking, Davis and Eisenhower,they completly disagree with you on the Ford exhaust brake as Ford either won or was second. The Ram came in last place on all the downhill braking tests with the exhaust brake.

 



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travlingman wrote:

Actually Ford changed the turbo on the pickups in 2015, not sure c/c. Here is the one ton pickup challenge done for that year. http://special-reports.pickuptrucks.com/2014-ultimate-one-ton-hd-challenge.html As you can see in the results for the downhill tests which used the exhaust braking, Davis and Eisenhower,they completly disagree with you on the Ford exhaust brake as Ford either won or was second. The Ram came in last place on all the downhill braking tests with the exhaust brake.

 


 Perhaps Ford changed the turbos on the pickups in 2015.  I thought it was later according to other reports.  But the brand new 2016 F-550 I tested, back to back with a Ram 5500 - the F-550 brake was not effective.  That simple.  The Ram's was very effective. (The Ford did not provide an on-off switch so it could not have been the turbo brake was not "on.")  Same results as others mentioned in this thread.  Pick the brand you like and purchase it.  I like my hands-on testing and now a lot of miles backing up that decision.  Let us recall, these "tests" were on 2104 pickups and Class III trucks.  Not MDT's.  Don't know how much difference that makes or not but there are many drive train differences between Class III and Class V trucks that impact results including driver input.



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Bill & Linda
2014 New Horizons Majestic F37RLTSS 96

2016 RAM 5500HD \ 4-Wheel Drive \ Link Air Ride
Classy Chassis RV Hauler Bed Conversion \ Aux Fuel Tank 



RV-Dreams Family Member

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To make the EB most effective one must have the TH on also. I manually select the gear descending a grade that I would have came up that grade in. I have no issue holding speed on 6 and up to 14% grades with a combined 33-35k.

One just needs to be smarter than the computer at times.

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2015 RAM/Cummins/Aisin/4.10's/3500Dually

2016 Mobile Suites 39TKSB3 "Highly Elited"

32,950# combined

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