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Post Info TOPIC: Regarding replacement of 5th wheel tires with Goodyear G114's


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Regarding replacement of 5th wheel tires with Goodyear G114's


When I had morRyde install my 8K IS suspension, I also replaced the wheels and tires (going with Goodyear G114 H rated tires and the required hi spec 17.5" aluminum wheels).  My OEM axles were 7K ... I chose not to replace the spare as it was a new Goodyear G614 on a 16" wheel ... this is because the IS allows for different sized wheels since each rotates on it's own ... not a recommended practice, but as a short term use on a spare ... it was doable.

Now comes the experience worth sharing ... the morRyde 8K IS wheel lug studs are 9/16".  The 7K OEM axles had 1/2" studs.  Bottom line, my spare wheel won't mount on my new 8K axles due to size of the stud hole.  I only mention this because others may have done the same as me and won't find out about the incompatibility until it is actually needed.  I am now buying a new wheel and tire to match what I'm running.  Lesson learned for me ... hopefully this will help others.

Cheers,

Ron



-- Edited by RonC on Friday 9th of March 2018 03:00:00 PM



-- Edited by RonC on Friday 9th of March 2018 03:05:13 PM

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Here's a bit more info for those reading along.  This is strictly dependent on the hubs, not necessarily the axle rating. I've had 8K (and 7K) with different size studs.  Also, most hubs can have the studs changed from one size to another.  They are just press fitted into the hubs.

I do feel your pain, Ron.  I ordered my NH specifically with 9/16" studs for a number of reasons.  New Horizons supplied the way over-sized 5/8" which caused me the same issue.  They corrected the mistake with money.  But it was still an annoyance as it was right on the order.  Stuff happens.

So even if you know what to order one can still have an issue.  :(

By the way, mixing a "G" G614 tire with an "H" G114 tire is really no issue because the actual diameter of the tire's tread when it hits the road is almost identical between the two tires.  But you are correct, as the suspension is independent it really is no issue regardless for a spare use situation.  ("Ask me how I know this" for some 3,500 miles.)

Guess the most inexpensive fix is a steel wheel and re-mount the tire?

Bill



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Since Rob (morRyde) handled the original job, I’m going back to them for annual repack and general maintenance, so he’s going to get me a matching wheel, I am going to use an H rated Sailun for a spare ... that will save me a little money.

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2016 Ford F350, King Ranch, DRW, 3.73's, 4x4, CC, 6.7 Powerstroke, remote control air lift system

2017 Durango Gold 381REF (41 ft, 5 slides), MORryde IS, 8K Disc brakes, GY G114  LR H Tires, 27,320 lbs CGVW

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Interesting! My 07.5 MS had 9/16" studs. My Current 16 MS has 5/8" studs that i would not be without as they are clamping lug nuts/hub centric.

When I changed the 07.5 to 17.5's I went with Alcoa's and swapped out my studs to 5/8".

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RonC wrote:

When I had morRyde install my 8K IS suspension, I also replaced the wheels and tires (going with Goodyear G114 H rated tires and the required hi spec 17.5" aluminum wheels).  My OEM axles were 7K ... I chose not to replace the spare as it was a new Goodyear G614 on a 16" wheel ... this is because the IS allows for different sized wheels since each rotates on it's own ... not a recommended practice, but as a short term use on a spare ... it was doable.

Now comes the experience worth sharing ... the morRyde 8K IS wheel lug studs are 9/16".  The 7K OEM axles had 1/2" studs.  Bottom line, my spare wheel won't mount on my new 8K axles due to size of the stud hole.  I only mention this because others may have done the same as me and won't find out about the incompatibility until it is actually needed.  I am now buying a new wheel and tire to match what I'm running.  Lesson learned for me ... hopefully this will help others.

Cheers,

Ron



-- Edited by RonC on Friday 9th of March 2018 03:00:00 PM



-- Edited by RonC on Friday 9th of March 2018 03:05:13 PM


 I would have just drilled the rim out. 



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RonC wrote:

Since Rob (morRyde) handled the original job, I’m going back to them for annual repack and general maintenance, so he’s going to get me a matching wheel, I am going to use an H rated Sailun for a spare ... that will save me a little money.


 Typical good service from Rob.  I like that fix.  Bought a lower cost "H" and did the same thing once in a pinch.



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Glenn West wrote:
RonC wrote:

 

 I would have just drilled the rim out. 


 Glenn, I'd be a little cautions about that.  Just a conversation, but there is a bit more to it then just making the hole larger including the machine work which is probably required for either the self-centering taper lugs or perhaps the recessed capture grove for the 5/8".  In some of the rims (wheels as they are now called) there is a steel insert into the aluminum the latter of which is not designed to take the stress of the steel.  It depends on the product.  Just my opinion.



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Is your spare Aluminum? I was thinking steel rim. I would have no problems with steel. Not but a 1/16"

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Glenn West wrote:

Is your spare Aluminum? I was thinking steel rim. I would have no problems with steel. Not but a 1/16"


Yep, it is Aluminum with steel, self centering, inserts.  Just being careful for those reading along that might not be aware of all of the conditions.



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Every 8K application I have found has 5/8" studs.

Do your guys look like this? If not please tell my why anyone would want lug centric 9/16" studs?

<a rel=i.imgur.com/eekt1utl.jpg">

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Cummins12V98 wrote:

Every 8K application I have found has 5/8" studs.

Do your guys look like this? If not please tell my why anyone would want lug centric 9/16" studs?

i.imgur.com/eekt1utl.jpg">


 They come 9/16 or 5/8. I had 8k hubs on my Teton with 7k axles. Upgraded to disc and bought rotors with 9/16 due to my rims. Could have got either



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Glenn West wrote:
Cummins12V98 wrote:

Every 8K application I have found has 5/8" studs.

Do your guys look like this? If not please tell my why anyone would want lug centric 9/16" studs?

i.imgur.com/eekt1utl.jpg">


 They come 9/16 or 5/8. I had 8k hubs on my Teton with 7k axles. Upgraded to disc and bought rotors with 9/16 due to my rims. Could have got either


 X2 on Glenn's comments.  9/16" or 5/8" can be had, and are supplied both ways, on 8K Kodiak and Dexter hubs.  

Either is fine for an 8K (4K per side) axle by specification.  There are perceived advantages to both.  With the 9/16" - for those that care - there is no need for the plastic hub cover (decorative) that some OEM's have used. I've had trailers from OEMs, 8K axles, supplied with both sizes.

The 9/16" lugs appear better looking as they are polished.  New Horizons and Mobile Suites are two examples who have used 5/8" and are now, in some cases, going to 9/16".  Why?  Because one can check the lug torque without removing the plastic covers which are, to some, a pain in more ways than one.  Because of that trouble some will not check the lug torque as often as they should. Also the torque value for the 5/8" is much higher and, for some, more difficult to achieve properly.  After torquing 48 of the 5/8" lugs to 150 ft. lbs. my wrist hurts - a lot. {Grin}

I am not saying 5/8" are not "stronger" then 9/16". Actually a 1" stud is stronger than both.  But for me the 9/16" are plenty strong, easier to torque and I don't have to mess with the plastic covers.  Actually safer, IMO, because I do check the torque regularly when we travel because I can.  The 9/16" also center the tire on the lugs just as precisely as the clamping 9/16" IMO.

We each can do as we please. Either is fine.  But those are my reasons and I believe the OEM's, at least some, concur with those reasons.

We’re all just passing along information here. It’s just a choice.

 

Safe travels.



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I can tell you the 5/8" system is FAR superior to the 9/16". Reason is the wheel its self fights tight to the hub and the 5/8 lugs have a big washer that actually clamps the wheel to the rotor this system ic called "Hub Centric" same as your trucks wheels. The 9/16 relies on a steel lug nut that is tapered to compress into an aluminum wheel to hold it in place. I highly recommend checking the torque on this system regularly, it's called "Lug Centric.

Alcoa will not rate their 17.5" wheels to carry the 4,805# load of the GY "H" tire with 9/16 holes. They will with 5/8. I knocked out my 9/16 studs and replaced with 5/8 on my 07.5 MS when changing from 16" "G" to 17.5 "H".

Using a proper torque wrench it is NOT hard to achieve 150# tq. Also if torqued properly they will NOT need to be rechecked. I have checked mine just for fun and they have never changed.

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Cummins12V98 wrote:

I can tell you the 5/8" system is FAR superior to the 9/16". Reason is the wheel its self fights tight to the hub and the 5/8 lugs have a big washer that actually clamps the wheel to the rotor this system ic called "Hub Centric" same as your trucks wheels. The 9/16 relies on a steel lug nut that is tapered to compress into an aluminum wheel to hold it in place. I highly recommend checking the torque on this system regularly, it's called "Lug Centric.

Alcoa will not rate their 17.5" wheels to carry the 4,805# load of the GY "H" tire with 9/16 holes. They will with 5/8. I knocked out my 9/16 studs and replaced with 5/8 on my 07.5 MS when changing from 16" "G" to 17.5 "H".

Using a proper torque wrench it is NOT hard to achieve 150# tq. Also if torqued properly they will NOT need to be rechecked. I have checked mine just for fun and they have never changed.


 Ah, as is sometimes said, that's why we have a choice.  But let us all recall, if one has 4805 lbs on that tire then the 8K hubs are overloaded by 805 lbs. 

Anyway, happy you have what you have.  Nice to have a choice.

Safe travels



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Bill and Linda wrote:
RonC wrote:

Since Rob (morRyde) handled the original job, I’m going back to them for annual repack and general maintenance, so he’s going to get me a matching wheel, I am going to use an H rated Sailun for a spare ... that will save me a little money.


 Typical good service from Rob.  I like that fix.  Bought a lower cost "H" and did the same thing once in a pinch.


 Makes me wonder why Rob didn't point this out to you when you had this done? Doesn't instill a whole lot of confidence that he didn't!  I am scheduled to have the 8K IS and 17.5 wheel & tire upgrade done later this month, but I had planned on having all 5 replaced. Has anyone experienced any frame issues after upgrading, I seem to remember Howard & Linda having some issues, anyone else??



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The Carrilite we had had 8k Dexter hubs with 9/16 studs. As Bill said, it was much easier to check torque regularly. Our current DRV has the 5/8 studs, and to be honest I haven't had the covers off since I replaced all the disc brake pads, greased all the caliper pins, and did the second torque setting after 50 miles. I had to use Blue Locktite on the screws that hold the covers on and hate to have to continually worry about losing ANOTHER cover.

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Dmkimm ... the trouble H&L had was their pin box area (upper deck) failed ... after 12 years or so. It's worth noting that Howard has never used an air hitch, so the solid connection between truck and trailer gives the pin box area a real beating on our poor roads.

Regarding frame issues AFTER MorRYDE has done their thing ... your current undercarriage is attached to your frame by three (assuming two axles) 2” brackets. AFTER MorRYDE’s modification, my undercarriage is attached to the frame by box steel that is 6 ft long. Way better ... strengthens the frame considerably.



-- Edited by RonC on Monday 2nd of April 2018 08:28:41 PM



-- Edited by RonC on Wednesday 4th of April 2018 12:17:50 PM

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dmkimm wrote:
Bill and Linda wrote:
RonC wrote:

Since Rob (morRyde) handled the original job, I’m going back to them for annual repack and general maintenance, so he’s going to get me a matching wheel, I am going to use an H rated Sailun for a spare ... that will save me a little money.


 Typical good service from Rob.  I like that fix.  Bought a lower cost "H" and did the same thing once in a pinch.


 Makes me wonder why Rob didn't point this out to you when you had this done? Doesn't instill a whole lot of confidence that he didn't!  I am scheduled to have the 8K IS and 17.5 wheel & tire upgrade done later this month, but I had planned on having all 5 replaced. Has anyone experienced any frame issues after upgrading, I seem to remember Howard & Linda having some issues, anyone else??


 

In answer to your question bolded above: Rob didn’t because a 16” wheel with a “G” tire is quite acceptable as a spare mixed with 17.5” wheels and “H” tires.  I had to run 3,500 miles with a 16” and “G” tire with 17.5” and “H” tires.  Zero issues because the IS is independent and the effective diameter between the 16” plus the “G” is only about one-half inch different form the 17.5” and the “H.”  No big deal as a spare and few would probably never have to run as far as I did.

A comment: If Rob had tried to “sell” an up-grade for the spare to the 17.5” and “H” tire, a pricey item, some might say he was trying to sell something “extra” that is not absolutely required.  Perhaps desirable but not required for safety.  Rob doesn’t do that.  Many have run 16” and “G” tires as a spare and, for what my opinion is worth, I actually suggest it if the budget is tight.

As to H & L’s frame issue:  It had nothing to do with the IS.  It had to do, IMO, with high pin weight and no air-ride hitch over many miles of towing on the true Class IV truck spring suspension.  IMO air-ride for the pin, in some form, is extremely important to protect the front of the trailer frame.  But to the point of the frame, the IS actually reinforces the frame due to its cross “H” design.  There is a lot of steel reinforcement that goes into the frame with the IS which isn’t there with a spring suspension system.  Naturally that frame reinforcement has no impact on the forces in the pin box and frame frontal area which is where their trailer broke according to Howard’s posts.

Again, I’m not trying to be argumentative, simply answer the points raised.

Bill



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In my case, I told Rob that I was going to use my existing spare, so no real discussion took place. He probably figured I knew what I was doing (the only mistake made by him 😜). You will find (at least I found) them to be very professional and highly ethical. MorRYDE fully intends to do the right thing, but they aren’t perfect and mistakes and miscommunications do occur. The clearer you are with what you want, the more likely you are to get it. Good luck on your project!

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RonC are you 100% sure you have 9/16" studs and not 5/8" ? Did you look at the pic I posted above?

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For the mechanically uninformed, what is the difference between lug centric and hub centric. When I google images of them my eyes just glaze over. So far, given explanations on this thread are not helping unfog my bio-engineered data base of mechanical knowledgebiggrin. Not sure I even need to know the difference or why, if I should. noconfuseconfuse 

Brian



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Whether it’s lug or hub all it means is how the wheel is centered. If the wheel isn’t centered you will get run out issues such as vibration, irregular tire wear, and/or rapid suspension wear. 

Hub centered is where the wheel is centered on the brake hub usually you will notice lugs around the bearing housing that centers the wheel to the hub. 

Lug centered means that the wheel is centered using the lug bolts. When you install the lug nuts, which have a conic taper to them, and tighten them in a star pattern they will center the wheel to the hub assembly. 

Hope this makes sense to you now. 



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The lug centric I get... just found an article illustrating the difference... now I've got it. DUH!!



-- Edited by BiggarView on Wednesday 4th of April 2018 09:21:44 AM

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Don’t be too hard on yourself (let us! ) I’m not real sure that many folks get it or even try to understand it. I can tell you over the years being in the tire industry for years I have seen many instances of people NOT understandinG. Wrong wheels applied, the centering bosses ground down, the incorrect lug nuts, the list goes on and on. All the while hearing “it works and I just tow it a couple of times a year”. Of course my response to this was always - hey, do me a favor and let me know when your are going to be on the roads and I’ll make sure my wife and kids are not anywhere near you!  Usually got a dirty look on the one. 



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Cummins12V98 wrote:

RonC are you 100% sure you have 9/16" studs and not 5/8" ? Did you look at the pic I posted above?


 I did look at your pics ... I think my wheels and studs look like yours ... the lug nuts are not conical so I'm hub centered.  They are also polished and exposed ... there is no cover over them.  Truthfully, I don't know if I have 9/16 or 5/8 ... when I talked to Rob, he said that I have 9/16 ... but they do so many I'd be surprised if he remembered me.  Whichever I actually have, the same discussion applies ... my current spare won't work.

I was told to torque them to 120 lbs/ft ... that leads me to believe that they are 9/16.



-- Edited by RonC on Wednesday 4th of April 2018 03:41:25 PM



-- Edited by RonC on Wednesday 4th of April 2018 03:52:23 PM

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2017 Durango Gold 381REF (41 ft, 5 slides), MORryde IS, 8K Disc brakes, GY G114  LR H Tires, 27,320 lbs CGVW

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Rickl wrote:

Don’t be too hard on yourself (let us! ) ...


 Knock yourself out. I'm willing to admit it when I don't know something.... On this, I do now... One more fact stored away in my "mine of useless/useful information".  Some day,  I'll be a freakin' genius equivalent of an IBM Deep Blue computer, idiot savant or know just enough to be dangerous.....biggrin



-- Edited by BiggarView on Wednesday 4th of April 2018 01:35:21 PM

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RonC wrote:
Cummins12V98 wrote:

RonC are you 100% sure you have 9/16" studs and not 5/8" ? Did you look at the pic I posted above?


 I did look at your pics ... I think my wheels and studs look like yours ... the lug nuts are not conical so I'm hub centered.  They are also polished and exposed ... there is no cover over them.  Truthfully, I don't know if I have 9/16 or 5/8 ... when I talked to Rob, he said that I have 9/16 ... but they do so many I'd be surprised if he remembered me.  Whichever I actually have, the same discussion applies ... my current spare won't work.

I was told to torque them to 120 lbs/ft ... that leads me to believe that they are 9/16.



-- Edited by RonC on Wednesday 4th of April 2018 03:41:25 PM



-- Edited by RonC on Wednesday 4th of April 2018 03:52:23 PM

 

Based on all that you have 5/8" studs with clamping lug nuts.  My 07.5 MS had 9/16" studs.  I replaced therewith 5/8" when I upgraded to 17.5 "H" tires and wheels.


 



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