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Post Info TOPIC: HELP, THIS IS JUST TO TIRING.....


RV-Dreams Community Member

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HELP, THIS IS JUST TO TIRING.....


Recently I was in the market for a new 3500 dually GMC or Chevy (I have been a general motors guy my whole life.) all I kept hearing is if you want that you can't have this. What I am looking for; general motors, capable of towing 20,000 lb. 5th wheel, 8' box, extended cab / not crew cab, (only my wife and I)shortest wheel base possible, power bucket seats, power adjustable accelerator and brake pedals (safer for my wife to drive, she is short), dark brown exterior paint, turbo diesel with Allison trans. without spending $80,000.00 out the door. is that so hard to ask? of course all the common since stuff like; 5th wheel tow package, painted in bed liner, 20,000 lb 5th wheel receiver installed, (nerf?) bars- 6" round bars for steps in and out the cab, optional dual alternators, 4x4 or 2x4 ( doesn't matter, which ever can handle towing more weight ), coco / sand leather interior, auto adjusting in-out trailer mirrors, power rear window, limo tinted windows, Bose sound / navigation system, 3 camera towing system, o.k., I think that's it. So is this really so hard of a task??? I just got to frustrated at the dealers, I quit looking and decided to complete my 1981 GMC 3500 dually Sierra Classic for now. I still have a few years until I really want / need it. I will revisit this if the opportunity presents itself.



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I am a long time GM guy and started out looking for something similar to what you are looking for. I had in mind what I thought was my wants and needs.

My wants, Dually with 8 Foot Bed, leather seats with console, spray in bedliner, 5th Wheel Puck Mount, 2 Wheel Drive, light color inside and outside, good tow capacity, nice sound system.
I did not want, Sun Roof, Dark interior or exterior color, 4 Wheel Drive.

I got the same line, if you want this you cannot have this, is was getting pretty frustrating. I originally was looking for a Double Cab (what GM now calls a extended cab) for some of the same reasons (shorter overall wheelbase with 8 ft bed and only the two of us) and found it is only available in certain trim levels and configurations.

I expanded my search to the other brands and models, ended up ordering a 2018 RAM 3500 after finding out it was a better fit for what I was looking for.
Ordered a 3500 Crew Cab, 8 Ft Bed (RAM HD is not available in extended cab), Air Ride rear suspension (not offered by the other manufactures, ride is awesome for a 1 Ton Truck), Aisin Transmission (Comparable to GMs Allison), 4:10 Axle Ratio with 30,000 lb tow capacity (not available in GM product), Pearl White exterior with Tan / Brown trimmed interior, Keyless Start, Laramie package (includes leather interior, Power fold Mirrors, Power rear window, upgrade sound system, heated mirrors, etc).
I opted not to get the Rear Window defogger (had on last truck, never used it), 4 Wheel Drive (had in last truck, never used it), convenience package (automatic dim headlights, rain sensing windshield wipers), Navigation system, (I prefer to use my RV Garmin, plus dealer said Navigation is already in the radio and if I changed my mind in the future, stop by any dealer and they can activate it for the same cost as ordering it new). Not ordering these options saved me thousands of dollars on the window sticker.
Window sticker was 68,000 price with our price before trade with Tax / Tag in the upper $50k then dealer gave us higher than typical book trade value or about $7,000 higher than other dealers had offered for our 2012 GMC (close to what the local used car lots were listing similar GMC's for) so we wound up in the upper $20k difference out the door to move from our 2012 GMC SLT 3500HD with 115,000 miles to a new 2018 RAM Laramie 3500.

To be absolutely honest, I never saw myself buying a Chrysler / Dodge product (and I have taken a lot of ribbing from family and friends), but so far we have been very happy with our choice, the RAM / Cummins is a different animal from our previous GM Duramax Diesels and has taken some time to get used to driving it but love towing with it and the ride unloaded and loaded. Have been impressed with the Fit and Finish of our RAM, we have a little over 7,000 miles on it now and no issues at all.o


-- Edited by Rob_Fla on Friday 2nd of March 2018 04:50:49 AM



-- Edited by Rob_Fla on Friday 2nd of March 2018 05:03:58 AM

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You should be able to get a new 2018 Dmax Chev Silverado HD DRW LTZ trimmed out roughly the way you want for under 65K (USD) out the door depending on whether you could live without some of the more pricey options. Personally, I can live without the Bose sound system for example. This truck is on our short list. Like Rob, the RAM is winning my heart. At Chicago auto show recently, RAM was the only one to bring a dually. The SRW GMC and Chev offerings gave a good representation of the cab appointments however several "little things" gave me pause from what was a heavy favorite. These are more subjective things and YMMV as the say. The guts of the GM product... L5P Duramax/Allison is a solid combo. The new engine is practically all new from the ground up with beefed up internals. 

The RAM at the show just totally impressed me from top to bottom. As for the Ford, a great truck, just not our taste.

Bear in mind I have not test driven either one.... yet.

For what you are towing, all the new trucks are more than capable, You won't go wrong with the GM product if that is your choice. At this stage for us, the RAM has edged out in front.

One last thing, Don't know if GM is still using the clamshell design for its extended cabs.... JMHO but based on experience... it gets old real fast when in a parking lot and access to the rear seat is needed, might be less of an issue with a dually. One other thing now that I think of it, the crew cab will ride better and be more stable when towing than the extended cab because of it's longer wheel base. FWIW.



-- Edited by BiggarView on Friday 2nd of March 2018 07:09:40 AM

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All of the manufacturers make good trucks now. I'm a Ford guy for a couple of reasons, but I did test drive a GMC diesel with the Allison and I have to say that combination was very solid feeling in the the drive-train department . . . very solid and smooth shifts (I almost bought it). 



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" Aisin Transmission (Comparable to GMs Allison), 4:10 Axle Ratio with 30,000 lb tow capacity (not available in GM product), "

Anyone looking at a GM truck simply ask the Salesman "WHY" does the GM 3500 Dually have only 23K towing and the RAM has over 30????

I will give MY opinion on this. Remember GM has recently raised the HP and TQ so that can't be the reason. The Allison is a good trans but it's at the end of it's life as far as towing capability.

The AISIN is a truck medium duty trans as it is used in MANY non RAM MD applications. The Allison MD trans is NOT the same as the PickUp trans.

Plain and simple if GM could SAE rate their trucks to tow the same as Ford and RAM they sure would!



-- Edited by Cummins12V98 on Friday 2nd of March 2018 10:58:17 AM

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Just as a reminder, unless things have changed since I did my research into trucks, going by the manufacturer's "tow rating" is a misleading standard.  It is very likely that if one were to load up to the manufacturer's tow rating, they would be overweight on GCVW (Gross Combined Vehicular Weight) and GAWR (Gross Axle Weight Rating.)

When we purchased our 2008 Ford F450, it was the highest rated truck of any that were less than F550/5500 series trucks.  I can guarantee that if I were to have a trailer that weighed what they stated was the tow rating, I would definitely be overweight.

Terry



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2010 Mobile Suites 38TKSB3
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2014 Ford Expedition 4X4 as Tag-along or Scout

Two minor works in progess....pictures taken over the years and a webblog:

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RV-Dreams Family Member

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Trying to find a 3500 at a dealer with most or all of the items you want is impossible. Since the 90's very few dealers order 2500 and 3500 trucks to carry on their lot except work trucks. To get the 3500 you or I would like you need to order a new model from the factory and wait for weeks or months for delivery.

For over a year I searched for a new 3500 dually crewcab nationwide that met my needs for towing a 5th wheel. I could only find work trucks...white paint, vinyl interior few creature comforts no Sierra or Silverado trim. So I began looking for a good used truck within 500 miles so I could look it over and test drive before buying it. In a 4 month period I found 3 that nearly met my needs. One was in bad shape eventhough the ad and pictures made it look decent, another one (my first choice) looked brand new and was a certified used vehicle by chevy- during the test drive there was a rattle in the front right and the truck would pull hard to the right when the brakes were used. Once we got back to the dealer I looked at the front right and there appeared to be repaired accident damage of course the salesman whipped out the Carfax and it showed no accidents or major repairs. Certified with a loud rattle, bad brakes plus repaired accident damage.... not willing to take a chance.

The third truck was decent and I was ready to buy it until I spied a brand new C4500 Kodiak with a Monroe conversion. The test drive was OK a little rougher than I liked but my wife liked it when she drove it. At the time diesel was about $5.00 a gallon; the dealer had the truck for nearly a year and wanted it gone. I got a great deal and have had the truck for 10 years with no problems. It is the perfect truck to tow my 5th wheel with.

So keep looking something will show up.

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May be just a minor point, or not, but worth considering. Ram is said to be updating their 3500 series trucks in 2020. At the local car show I was able to view the new 2019 Ram 1500 next to the 2018. Big difference. Suppose those that bought a 2016 Ford had to consider the same when the all new 2017 came out.

I've not test drove either the Ford or Ram heavy duty yet. I've been in both at the car show. Personally I liked the seats and finish in the Ram over the Ford. I'm also wondering if the Ford dually diesel is quieter inside when the engine is running. Friends that went with the Ford said yes.

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I can say yes with our 2015 F-350 DRW.


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Go with a RAM and get more truck for lots less money

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"I'm also wondering if the Ford dually diesel is quieter inside when the engine is running. Friends that went with the Ford said yes."

ALL the newer Diesel trucks are so quiet now you have no issue carrying on a normal conversation. YES the GM and Ford may be "slightly" quieter, but is that really a reason to buy one over the other? Fact is the RAM will pull hills at lower RPM's, even at 2,600 pulling a grade the inside cab noise is a non issue!




"Go with a RAM and get more truck for lots less money" This is a true statement but IMHO not a reason to buy one over the other.


Good reasons IMHO to buy a RAM are CUMMINS a true MD engine, AISIN a true MD trans, BorgWarner transfer case, fit and finish, factory rear air ride, interior quality with ease of use. Yes even with these things you get them for less $$$$.

Full RAWR in pic 9,750#also unloaded pic both in Alt Ride Mode that keeps the truck at level shown from zero to full RAWR.

<a rel=i.imgur.com/TXQxZ8ol.jpg">
<a rel=i.imgur.com/wmSpG0pl.jpg">


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Cummins12V98 wrote:

" Aisin Transmission (Comparable to GMs Allison), 4:10 Axle Ratio with 30,000 lb tow capacity (not available in GM product), "

Anyone looking at a GM truck simply ask the Salesman "WHY" does the GM 3500 Dually have only 23K towing and the RAM has over 30????

I will give MY opinion on this. Remember GM has recently raised the HP and TQ so that can't be the reason. The Allison is a good trans but it's at the end of it's life as far as towing capability.

The AISIN is a truck medium duty trans as it is used in MANY non RAM MD applications. The Allison MD trans is NOT the same as the PickUp trans.

Plain and simple if GM could SAE rate their trucks to tow the same as Ford and RAM they sure would!



-- Edited by Cummins12V98 on Friday 2nd of March 2018 10:58:17 AM


 But 30k is not 5th wheel towing. Pin weight would way past axle rating. Also 23k isn't working either. So that is a mute point. I don't have a preference though. I had a ton of problems with my 2012 Chevy. Glad it's gone. 



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RV-Dreams Family Member

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The over 30K is for a gooseneck that typically has 15% pin. My 23K double axle puts my truck at it's RAWR of 9,750# and not close to it's towing limits BUT any DRV for example that weighs as much as mine typically will have three axles and WILL put the pin weight MUCH lower. Let's say a triple axle DRV of 26K has a 20% pin that puts the pin at 5,200# about 5-600# less than mine so in reality I could pull an even heavier triple axle and still be within my SAE rated axle and towing capacities.

Technically I could pull a 28K triple axle 5er with 20% pin of 5,600# and be within my SAE ratings.

Don't try saying I am overloaded by being over 14K truck GVWR.

Here is my truck with it having 9,750# on rear axle with Factory Rear Air Ride keeping the truck at it's proper towing tide height.

Glen I know your GM was having issues with your RV but things have improved since that trucks era.

i.imgur.com/NUyFKnLl.jpg">



-- Edited by Cummins12V98 on Sunday 11th of March 2018 11:17:24 AM

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5k pin put my rear axle over 10k. Have you ever weighted your truck? Also my Teton is just shy of 21k



-- Edited by Glenn West on Sunday 11th of March 2018 02:19:54 PM

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Glenn West wrote:

5k pin put my rear axle over 10k. Have you ever weighted your truck? Also my Teton is just shy of 21k



-- Edited by Glenn West on Sunday 11th of March 2018 02:19:54 PM


I am right at my RAWR of 9,750#.  I was carrying something I don't typically that weighed around 200#.

 

 



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Best decision I made when buying my truck was to order it built exactly to our requirements. Once I had this spec'd out it was very easy to contact each dealer (via e-mail normally) and provide the specs and ask for their bottom line out the door price. No hassle at all. I ended up going to a dealer that was considered a commercial dealer that only sold trucks. But they would order and sell to individuals.

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Cummins12V98 wrote:
Glenn West wrote:

5k pin put my rear axle over 10k. Have you ever weighted your truck? Also my Teton is just shy of 21k



-- Edited by Glenn West on Sunday 11th of March 2018 02:19:54 PM


I am right at my RAWR of 9,750#.  I was carrying something I don't typically that weighed around 200#.

 

 


 I have 25% pin weight. Tows sweeet. I would not be comfortable with your axle weight. 



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"I would not be comfortable with your axle weight."

I am curious why? I am running my factory RAWR and it is SAE rated. Rear tire capacity is over 11,000#.

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You stated your axle rated at 9750. Tires are not your limiting factor. Chassis and all figures into this.



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RV-Dreams Family Member

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Glenn West wrote:

You stated your axle rated at 9750. Tires are not your limiting factor. Chassis and all figures into this.


 Come on Glen, the whole truck is engineered and SAE tested at that number.  Your GM had issues because it was not rated for your load and as you said it was not doing the job so you went to a larger truck.  

 

I have zero issues climbing or descending miles or 14% grades on very winding roads.  NEVER have felt like the RV was pushing the truck.



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Hello everyone. I just joined this forum and I am intrigued by this thread.  I’m planning to order a DRV 39DBRS3 next week and I plan to order or purchase a Ram Laramie Longhorn 4x4 dual wheel truck with the Cummins/Aisin package with the 4:10 rear end. 

Cummins12V98 posted a photo of his weight ticket. If I’m reading it correctly his truck weighs 15,520 lbs. with the fifth wheel on board. The GVWR of the Ram is 14,000 lbs.  He has exceeded the weight rating for the truck and in my opinion it is not safe to operate at those weights. 

Do I need more truck than the 3500 I am considering?



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RV-Dreams Family Member

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Too many on drink the Kool-Aid on here about Ram Trucks

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2003 Teton Grand Freedon  2006 Mobile Suites 32TK3 SOLD     2006 Freightliner Century 120 with Detroit 14L singled, ultrashift,  hauling a 2016 Smart Passion



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OneReallyOldGuy wrote:

Hello everyone. I just joined this forum and I am intrigued by this thread.  I’m planning to order a DRV 39DBRS3 next week and I plan to order or purchase a Ram Laramie Longhorn 4x4 dual wheel truck with the Cummins/Aisin package with the 4:10 rear end. 

Cummins12V98 posted a photo of his weight ticket. If I’m reading it correctly his truck weighs 15,520 lbs. with the fifth wheel on board. The GVWR of the Ram is 14,000 lbs.  He has exceeded the weight rating for the truck and in my opinion it is not safe to operate at those weights. 

Do I need more truck than the 3500 I am considering?


 The 14K is just a NUMBER to keep the truck in a non commercial class 3.  Going higher will put it in a  classification that will cause licensing and insurance to be higher.  Wonder why the F450 has a GVWR of 14K???

 

The truck is SAE rated to carry 9,750# on the rear axle.  Now simply add the 5,300# factory weight front axle.  HMMMMM that is 15K!  Simple thing if you care simply add 16K tonnage to your registration.  

 

You do NOT need more truck!  The truck is SAE rated to haul and carry your RV.

 

What you do need is to order the factory Rear Ride, you will thank me!



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RV-Dreams Family Member

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Glenn West wrote:

Too many on drink the Kool-Aid on here about Ram Trucks


 Well Glen please explain your comment.  Personally don't like Kool-Aid. ;)



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FWIW. ... almost all truck’s GVWR is less than the sum of the FAWR plus the RAWR. My 2016 Ford F-350 King Ranch Dually has a FAWR of 5,940 lbs, the RAWR is 9,650 lbs for a total of 15,590 lbs ... but the GVWR is 14,000 lbs. Can’t explain this, but it is not unusual for this to be true ... can’t speak to the Chevy, but I suspect it would be similar.  If I was to speculate why this is true, it could be a marketing decision to keep the truck in the class 3 as has been suggested or it could be to operate well within the design specifications to enhance longevity ... but I really don’t know.



-- Edited by RonC on Sunday 25th of March 2018 01:56:31 PM

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^^^^^ I think I clearly explained it.

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Actually, you gave your opinion ... which isn't a fact.


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2017 Durango Gold 381REF (41 ft, 5 slides), MORryde IS, 8K Disc brakes, GY G114  LR H Tires, 27,320 lbs CGVW

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What I've never quite understood is what effect an "SAE rating" had on the weight capacity of a truck.  Is that different than what the door sticker of the vehicle states?

As I just posted elsewhere, just going by manufacturer's numbers can be risky.

I need to state that the following needs to consider that the trailers weighed were DRV Suites models, most all of which are/were heavy trailers.

"There was a couple that went around to rallies and other events and weighed RV's wheel by wheel, in other words, getting the weights on each and every wheel, including the weights on the trucks towing those RV's.  His last year of weighing was 2010, so that needs to be considered as well.  He posted a "summary" in a pdf file showing the weights of the various models and sizes of trailers.  Then he had this to say about the weights on the trucks:

100% of single rear wheel (SRW) trucks were overweight on GVWR, based on the sticker on the door.

60% of dual rear wheel (DRW) trucks were overweight on GVWR, based on the sticker on the door.

It was eye-opening to see that he stated that 60% of duallys were overweight.  It made me glad that we had a 2008 F450, which was better suited for the weight of our fifth wheel.

He also stated this:

28% were over the tow vehicle's RAWR, based on the sticker on the door.

24% were over on the tow vehicles tire capacity rating.

30% had underinflated tires for the load they were under."

Granted, the capabilities of the trucks have gotten better in most cases, but one really needs to be careful of what happens with a heavy trailer and a truck not up to capacity.  A lot of research into both the RV's and the truck's weights needs to be done to be sure we are safe.

Terry



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2008 Ford F450
2014 Ford Expedition 4X4 as Tag-along or Scout

Two minor works in progess....pictures taken over the years and a webblog:

Our photos on Smugmug

Ignoring the Barking Dogs  -  Terry's Blog



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RonC wrote:

Actually, you gave your opinion ... which isn't a fact.


 
Tell me what I said was wrong.  Also please explain how I can load to my RAWR and NOT be over my GVWR.  FACT is 14K is the limit in Class 3 pickups. 



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Cummins12V98 wrote:
RonC wrote:

Actually, you gave your opinion ... which isn't a fact.


 
Tell me what I said was wrong.  Also please explain how I can load to my RAWR and NOT be over my GVWR.  FACT is 14K is the limit in Class 3 pickups. 


 I agree that 14,000 lbs is the class 3 limit ... what you said ”wrong” was that the Ram was rated at 14,000 to keep it in the class 3 rating ... that is your opinion, not a fact.  There are many inexperienced people who read these posts and you put a weight ticket up that showed your GVW at 15,520 ... 1,520 lbs over your vehicle’s GVWR.  It’s OK for you to exceed your ratings, but other, less experienced people might follow your lead and it might not work out all that well for them.



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2016 Ford F350, King Ranch, DRW, 3.73's, 4x4, CC, 6.7 Powerstroke, remote control air lift system

2017 Durango Gold 381REF (41 ft, 5 slides), MORryde IS, 8K Disc brakes, GY G114  LR H Tires, 27,320 lbs CGVW

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"what you said ”wrong” was that the Ram was rated at 14,000 to keep it in the class 3 rating ... that is your opinion, not a fact."

Why is it wrong? Because it was my opinion? Since YOU are saying I am "wrong" please tell my what other reason there would be.

I have been VERY clear on MANY posts about my weight and why it's perfectly fine to be at my weight. Also I have thoroughly explained how it is impossible to not be over the GVWR running at my RAWR.

"Also please explain how I can load to my RAWR and NOT be over my GVWR." Still waiting for you or anyone to explain this.

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Treading dangerously here, but it occurs to me that one can load upto one axle rating or the other but not both in order to be under the GVWR. Much like you can load a trailer too much on a single axle but still be under the trailer's GVWR. It would be good to know, exactly, why GVWR is apparently lower than the combined ratings of front and rear axles. Inquiring minds want to know.

I'd have to side with Ron here, "that RAM was rated at 14000 GVWR to stay in class three" is an opinion. It could well be true, but there are no facts to back it up. It seems a credible assertion. RAM et al may have other factors that limit GVWR to a number that is less than the combined axle ratings.... the frame comes to mind for one. But we are simply guessing without facts. I think Ron is not accusing you of being wrong about the 14000 number or even why it exists and neither am I, but without a solid source (Mfr engineering dept data eg.) to back it up... it is in fact an opinion, nothing more. Not trying to gang up on you Cummins, I respect your input and experience. 

JMHO, Brian



-- Edited by BiggarView on Wednesday 28th of March 2018 10:15:24 AM

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Just to be clear my issue here is being told I am "WRONG" without anything to back it up. I am confident what I am saying is true but at this time I have no more than common sense to back ups what I am saying. Like I said F450 is limited to 14K and surely it's a more capable truck than any of the 350/3500's that are also rated at 14K GVWR.

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I think that Cummins does have some truth to his statements about the 14K rating of the trucks, including the newer Ford F450's.  As an example, our F450 is a 2008 model, whose GVWR is rated at 14,500 lbs.  As such, many want it to be licensed and insured as an MDT, which the older F450 technically was considered because of the 14,500 lb rating.  In addition, when we went to insure the F450 on one occasion, the insurance company wanted us to e-mail them photos of the pickup, both outside and inside, so that they could see that it was a pickup and NOT a commercial truck.

One can check Wikipedia to see the weights of trucks in relationship to their classification.  Because the Class III category truck ends at 14,000, those would cost less to tag and insure.  Now, if licensing bureaus and insurance companies would consider the use of the truck instead of an arbitrary weight with regards to licensing and insuring, it would make things simpler, plus one could buy a bit heavier truck for safety reasons for RV'ing instead of having to be nearly commercial rated.

Wikipedia Classification of Trucks

Terry



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2008 Ford F450
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Cummins12V98 wrote:

Just to be clear my issue here is being told I am "WRONG" without anything to back it up. I am confident what I am saying is true but at this time I have no more than common sense to back ups what I am saying. Like I said F450 is limited to 14K and surely it's a more capable truck than any of the 350/3500's that are also rated at 14K GVWR.


 This is becoming a bit of a contest.  I retract my characterization of your opinion as “WRONG”.  It is an unsubstantiated opinion ... you may call it what you wish.  



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2016 Ford F350, King Ranch, DRW, 3.73's, 4x4, CC, 6.7 Powerstroke, remote control air lift system

2017 Durango Gold 381REF (41 ft, 5 slides), MORryde IS, 8K Disc brakes, GY G114  LR H Tires, 27,320 lbs CGVW

Full Timers class of 2016



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Thank you!

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My RAM STICKERED at 77400... less money?...



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^^^^^ What are you saying??? Let's hope you did not pay more than about 64 with that sticker.

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32,950# combined



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Dando wrote:

My RAM STICKERED at 77400... less money?...


 Wow, I ordered our 2018 RAM 3500HD exactly like we wanted it, all the right towing stuff (Aisin Trans, 4.10 Axle, 5th Wheel Puck mount, Air Assist Rear Suspension) and nice Laramie trim level (Leather, Bucket Seats with Console, Aluminum Wheels, two tone paint) enough to make us very comfortable, window sticker 68K.



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