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Post Info TOPIC: Tow Vehicle & 5th Wheel Actual Weights


RV-Dreams Family Member

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Tow Vehicle & 5th Wheel Actual Weights


In my research I found very little actual vehicle weight numbers.  This left me playing around with online calculators like http://rvtowcheck.com/rvtc_calculator.html somewhat guessing at what the actual weights would be.  I would urge others to contribute their weights to this list.  My weights come from the CAT scales which are easy to do but a better method is individual wheel weights to make sure the balance and gross weights are within the limits.  An 8,000 lbs. axle means that there is a limit of 4,000 lbs. per wheel so an individual wheel weight of 3,500 lbs. on one side and 4,250 lbs. on the other exceeds the axle limit even though the total is within the gross rating.

2016 F450 Truck Hitch, Myself, & Full Fuel

Steer Axle - 5220

Drive Axle - 4360

Total - 9580

2016 F450 as above w/additional passenger & 2014 DRV 38 TKSB3

Steer Axle - 5420

Drive Axle - 7800

Trailer Axle - 13,340

Total - 26,560

Andy



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16,800 (~3450 pin + 13340 trailer axles) for a 38 foot DRV seems light. Is that loaded or empty trailer? Or am I miscalculating something? If empty and you add 3000 lbs of gear, etc your pin will rise by about 700 lbs ("guess"timate) but you'll be okay (8500 rear axle vs 9100 rear GAWR) if I am figuring it correctly. (I love math puzzles)



-- Edited by BiggarView on Wednesday 27th of January 2016 03:29:03 PM

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The published dry pin weight on our Reflection 337RLS was 2,090#. The last time we drove across the scales, we were at 3,100# - and we're loaded extremely lightly (approx. 1,800# of cargo) for full-timers since we only have a 3/4 ton truck.

Our last numbers were (2013 Sierra 2500HD, D/A, CC; 2016 GD Reflection 337RLS):

Truck scaled by itself: 7,520

Gross combined weight with fiver: 20,240

Steer axle: 4,2601

Drive axle: 6,180

Trailer axles: 9,800

Calculated pin weight: 3,100

I'm 440# over the GVWR for the truck, but a few pounds under for the rear axle, several hundred under for the tires, and 4,260 under for the gross combined ratings of the truck.

Rob

 



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BiggarView wrote:

16,800 (~3450 pin + 13340 trailer axles) for a 38 foot DRV seems light. Is that loaded or empty trailer? Or am I miscalculating something? If empty and you add 3000 lbs of gear, etc your pin will rise by about 700 lbs ("guess"timate) but you'll be okay (8500 rear axle vs 9100 rear GAWR) if I am figuring it correctly. (I love math puzzles)



-- Edited by BiggarView on Wednesday 27th of January 2016 03:29:03 PM


The trailer is for the most part empty.  We are about 10 lbs. different in numbers so it appears that you are pretty good with math puzzles.

 

Andy



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ahull wrote:
BiggarView wrote:

16,800 (~3450 pin + 13340 trailer axles) for a 38 foot DRV seems light. Is that loaded or empty trailer? Or am I miscalculating something? If empty and you add 3000 lbs of gear, etc your pin will rise by about 700 lbs ("guess"timate) but you'll be okay (8500 rear axle vs 9100 rear GAWR) if I am figuring it correctly. (I love math puzzles)



-- Edited by BiggarView on Wednesday 27th of January 2016 03:29:03 PM


The trailer is for the most part empty.  We are about 10 lbs. different in numbers so it appears that you are pretty good with math puzzles.

 

Andy


 Just wait till you load it up!  Most of the weight you add will be transferred to your trucks rear axle.  That small buffer you have now will disappear and your rear axle will be near it's 9,100# capacity or easily over..



-- Edited by Cummins12V98 on Thursday 28th of January 2016 12:40:36 PM



-- Edited by Cummins12V98 on Thursday 28th of January 2016 12:42:36 PM

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2015 RAM 3500 Crew Cummins Aisin 4:10's 4X4*******2016 39TKSB3 MobileSuites Lots of options

Steer Axle 5,380

Drive Axle 3,634

Total 9,014 Wife myself 7/8 tank fuel no hitch or toolbox

Combined loaded weights

Steer Axle 5,460

Drive Axle 9,580

TLR Axle 17,500

Total 32,540

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That will depend on what you call "loading it up". If he puts 4000+ lbs more weight into it, you're right it will be getting tight by my estimate. Not to mention starting to challenge the trailer axles also (I'm assuming he has 8K trailer axles). That is why I used the 3000lb number in my "guess" timate... to leave some room for truck axle and trailer axle ratings. Now, a huge battery bank and solar and few other heavy options and whatnot will put those numbers into question for available personal use stuff like food, clothes, etc.



-- Edited by BiggarView on Thursday 28th of January 2016 12:56:54 PM

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It's real easy to "load it up" if you are full timing! Add the gen prep and generator add fresh water or waste water tools camp related items and such. I went from factory 18,075# to around 23K without breaking a sweat!

Most full timers don't have a clue how much heavier their RV gets over time.

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It is important to realize, at least with currently sold trailers, the actual cargo capacity of the trailer must be listed.  This is after any optional equipment is added and that includes any equipment added by a dealer, like a generator, an additional air conditioner or awnings. (Awnings are heavy, BTW.)   Whether all dealers do this properly I can’t say.  But I encourage anyone purchasing a new trailer to verify the actual weight of the trailer before purchase and then likewise verifying how much cargo capacity remains. That capacity should include some water which as we all know is over 8lbs / gallon whether that is fresh, black or gray.

 

IMO, any person planning on full-timing should allow for at least 2,250lbs of stuff after anticipated water load.  Do note, if one is going to boondock water must be carried to the site.  Most boondocking locations don’t have water.  Hey, it’s boondocking.

 

We can all discuss that 2,250lb number up or down some pounds, but it isn’t 1,500 and you’re kidding your weight spreadsheet if you put in a low number.  Same for the pin weight added to the rear axle weight capacity of the truck.



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Our Mobile Suites has a sticker on the pin box that lists the cargo carrying capacity after the unit was built, and that weight is something like 2,850lbs.  We also added a washer and dryer after it arrived to our dealer.  So, when Jo went to loading stuff in the RV for our plans on leaving the home and living in the RV, she was absolutely positive that she had us overweight.  To calm her fears, when I took the trailer to our future home site in Oklahoma City, I drove by a feed store nearby and weight the whole rig.

I was afraid to tell her that she still had 760 lbs of leeway.  We've probably used that up by now.

On the other hand, here at Mountaindale, a couple had purchased a new fifth wheel and had it delivered to here.  They are staying long term and don't even own a tow vehicle.  When they went to moving in, they had LOTS of plastic tubs with stuff in them that they wanted to keep.  It took them a while, but they finally determined just what it was that they NEEDED to have so that they could get rid of what wasn't really needed.  I do know that they gave away a lot of stuff.

Terry



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I REALLY wish I would have thought to weigh my RV when new. 18,075# only ADD would be 6500 LP Gen. Now 23K, no idea how that 18K number could have been completed weight at the factory.

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Cummins12V98 wrote:

I REALLY wish I would have thought to weigh my RV when new. 18,075# only ADD would be 6500 LP Gen. Now 23K, no idea how that 18K number could have been completed weight at the factory.


Yea, when we took delivery of the trailer, before they even put the sticker on the side, we took the rig and weighted it - twice - to be confident of the base weight. By "we" I mean a factory rep, Linda and myself.

While most can't do this at the factory it pretty easy to take a new trailer to a CAT scale and get an unloaded weight.  That won't give you wheel-by-wheel, but its better than guessing at the total base.  If at all possible, IMO, make it part of the purchase agreement before you hand them the check.  Can't hurt to try.



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To get a left vs right weight on a cat scale, just keep one side off the platforms. To isolate trailer axles, split them on the platforms for the trailer and the drive wheels.

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Our 2012 F450 is 4750 front/4700 rear with 1 pax, no aux tank, and Trailersaver hitch installed…but after adding the aux tank we're overloaded on rear and have clearance issues with the bottom of our New Horizons Majestic…so we have a RAM 5500/hauler bed combo on order from Classy Chassis.

 



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Neil and Connie wrote:

Our 2012 F450 is 4750 front/4700 rear with 1 pax, no aux tank, and Trailersaver hitch installed…but after adding the aux tank we're overloaded on rear and have clearance issues with the bottom of our New Horizons Majestic…so we have a RAM 5500/hauler bed combo on order from Classy Chassis.

 


 Hope you order it with air ride suspension.



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Glenn West wrote:
Neil and Connie wrote:

Our 2012 F450 is 4750 front/4700 rear with 1 pax, no aux tank, and Trailersaver hitch installed…but after adding the aux tank we're overloaded on rear and have clearance issues with the bottom of our New Horizons Majestic…so we have a RAM 5500/hauler bed combo on order from Classy Chassis.

 


 Hope you order it with air ride suspension.


 I have it on reasonably good authority he did. :)



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Our traveling weights for a Volvo 610 HDT, carrying a Smart Car and pulling a New Horizons Summit 38, are:

Truck unhitched with Smart Car
Front axle – 12,700
Rear axle – 11,800
Total – 24,500

Truck hitched with Smart
Front axle – 11,925
Rear axle – 16,925
Total – 28,850

Fifth wheel
Front axle – 5,400
Mid axle – 5,200
Rear axle – 5,200
Pin weight – 4,350
Total trailer weight – 20,150

Rig Total – 44,650
Pin weight % - 21.6%

The truck axle ratings are front 12,000 and rear 19,000. The three fifth wheel axles are rated at 6,000. 



-- Edited by Trikester on Saturday 26th of March 2016 03:35:02 PM

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MarkS ... Thanks for the tip on splitting the axles and placing one set of wheels off the scales on a reweigh. I now have my individual wheel weights for twenty bucks!!



-- Edited by RonC on Saturday 13th of August 2016 11:06:59 PM

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RonC wrote:

Thanks for the tip on splitting the axles and placing one set of wheels off the scales on a reweigh. I now have my individual wheel weights for twenty bucks!!



-- Edited by RonC on Saturday 13th of August 2016 11:06:59 PM


Do keep in mind when one "splits the axles" you are still not getting actual single wheel weights.  At least if you are it is very difficult to get just one wheel on one side on the scale and also have the rig perfectly level with a dual or triple axle trailer.

One thing that must be kept in mind is that axle weight ratings can be a bit misleading.  If one has an 8,000lb axle the real rating is 4,000 per side.  Naturally on a 7,000lb axle it is 3,500 per side.  And those "side ratings" are the more important number as to safety.

I know of an RVer who had his trailer weighed recently and it only had something like 7,800lbs on one 8,000lb axle.  Problem was 4,800lbs of that 7,800 total was on one side thus overloading the axle by 800lbs.

The only totally accurate way, according to the DOT and the RVSEF to do fully accurate wheel weights, is to do each wheel independently i.e. with independent scales for each wheel, and also have all the wheels at the same height so as not to influence the weight on a wheel up or down due to a non-level condition of the rig.  (This has nothing specifically to do with DOT axle overweight conditions for which there could be fines in the commercial trucking world.  This has to do with RV safety.)

I am not saying that splitting the axles on the scale can't provide some useful information.  I'm just indicating that method may not reveal the true weight numbers for each wheel.  YMMV.

 



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VERY TRUE!!! ^^^^^^^^^^^^

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Bill, I started off on the CAT scales in the usual manner, this gave me front axle, rear axle and trailer weights. I then pulled forward keeping the back axle of the trailer on the trailer scale pad, but moving the front trailer axle to the drive wheel scale pad (splitting them). This gave me the total trailer front and rear axle weights. I only have two axles on my rig. I then backed up a bit and maneuvered the left side trailer wheels off the scale platforms and reweighed (with the trailer axles split) ... That gave me right wheel individual weights for the front and rear axles. By subtracting the right side wheel weight from the previously obtained total axle weight, I got the left side weights ... Voila!! 4 individual wheel weights. MarkS's method works like a charm. It was pretty easy to maneuver the trailer to get one set of wheels off the scale. I really don't know how this would work on a three axle rig.



-- Edited by RonC on Sunday 14th of August 2016 07:25:00 PM



-- Edited by RonC on Sunday 14th of August 2016 11:10:54 PM

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These are the results of the split axle weighing exercise. Steer Axle 5,260, Drive Axle 7,120, Trailer Axle (that's what the weigh ticket says, even though it's for both trailer axles together) 11,980. The split weights were Front 5,920 and Rear 6,060. When I weighed them split, with the left side off the scale the it was Right Front 3,020 Right Rear 2,820 .... the math then makes the Left Front 2,900 and Left Rear 3,240.

What I learned is that my rig's weight is pretty evenly distributed BUT I'm overweight (or "under" trucked) ... 120 lbs over the drive axle's 7,000 rating, 880 lbs over on the truck's GVWR and 860 lbs over on CGVW. While the truck pulls, handles and stops just fine. I am now convinced that I need more truck. I will be picking up a new 2016 F350 DRW truck later this week. My 5th wheel weighs 15,180 (3,200 lbs pin weight) against a 15,000 GVWR, so not too bad. I could dump some water and be good there. I have new Goodyear G614's on 7,000 lbs Dexter Axles, so good reserve on each corner (3,750 lbs per tire) with my heaviest corner weighing 3,240. While I could get by with my current SRW truck, I am not going to be overweight and over gross (now that I know) and place anyone at risk just to save a few bucks. As a bonus I'll get an improved transmission, bigger turbo, much better exhaust brake and peace of mind.

This forum has taught me lot and I'm very grateful.

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2016 Ford F350, King Ranch, DRW, 3.73's, 4x4, CC, 6.7 Powerstroke, remote control air lift system

2017 Durango Gold 381REF (41 ft, 5 slides), MORryde IS, 8K Disc brakes, GY G114  LR H Tires, 27,320 lbs CGVW

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RonC wrote:

Bill, I started off on the CAT scales in the usual manner, this gave me front axle, rear axle and trailer weights. I then pulled forward keeping the back axle of the trailer on the trailer scale pad, but moving the front trailer axle to the drive wheel scale pad (splitting them). This gave me the total trailer front and rear axle weights. I only have two axles on my rig. I then backed up a bit and maneuvered the left side trailer wheels off the scale platforms and reweighed (with the trailer axles split) ... That gave me right wheel individual weights for the front and rear axles. By subtracting the right side wheel weight from the previously obtained total axle weight, I got the left side weights ... Voila!! 4 individual wheel weights. MarkS's method works like a charm. It was pretty easy to maneuver the trailer to get one set of wheels off the scale. I really don't know how this would work on a three axle rig.



-- Edited by RonC on Sunday 14th of August 2016 07:25:00 PM



-- Edited by RonC on Sunday 14th of August 2016 11:10:54 PM


Good for you, Ron, if you can make it work.  Let's all just understand the technique and limitations as to accuracy that can be induced under the wrong conditions.  I've just seen single wheel weighting done incorrectly and it doesn't take much to cause large errors.  As I said YMMV. 



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Bill and Linda wrote:

Good for you, Ron, if you can make it work.  Let's all just understand the technique and limitations as to accuracy that can be induced under the wrong conditions.  I've just seen single wheel weighting done incorrectly and it doesn't take much to cause large errors.  As I said YMMV. 


I know that supposedly having the rig not level changes the weights…I've read that in multiple places and I'm not gonna say it's wrong but I can say that from an engineering and weight distribution standpoint…any errors caused by using the 'left wheels off the scale' method have got to pretty small. Let's do a little adult beverage bar napkin calculating (I had to change this from the original word since Activeboard asterisked a potential 4 letter word out) and see what they might be. **WARNING. Engineering geekspeak below. The TL*DR (Too Long-Didn't Read) conclusion is that tilting the rig most likely doesn't matter for reasonable degrees of tilt.

The weight on each wheel depends on trailer construction, basement loading, and water tank loading…but all of those remain pretty constant even if you tilt the rig a couple of degrees (and I think it would only be a couple of degrees maximum using this method). The only appreciable change in the loading on a particular wheel would be due to the water sloshing a bit to the low side of the tank…but just how much is that. Using our NH tank locations and capacities for example…if you had half full tanks and tilted the rig 2 degrees one way or the other what would happen? Half gray and black is 34 gallons or 282 pounds each and half fresh is 50 or 330 pounds. What you're really talking about is how much the center of gravity shifted in the tank and what that does to the weight. Looking at the tank dimensions…for a 2 degree tilt you're not going to move the center of gravity more than an inch or so; let's be generous and call it 2 inches…although my guess having not bothered to do the detailed calculation is that even an inch is overly generous. (Actually it wasn't a matter of not bothering as much as one has to do a whole Moment of Inertia calculation to figure out how much it moved and while my spreadsheet can certainly do the arithmetic for me I can't recall all the formulas I would need off the top of  my head and at least for this level of guess it's overkill and I was too lazy to google the formulas anyway.) The moment arm (CG to trailer centerline) for the level tank is about 35 inches or so and the moment arm for the wheel is about 48. With a black or gray tank of 282 pounds that's 9870 inch pounds which gets divided by the 48 inch moment arm to the wheel or about 205 pounds at the wheel (the rest of the weight gets transferred to/from the other side wheel. Moving the moment arm 2 inches bigger results in 10434 inch pounds which using the wheel moment arm is 217 pounds at the wheel…so tilting by 2 degrees changes the wheel weight by 55 pounds or so. Gray and fresh water tanks would be similar numbers…and that's assuming you actually traveled with half full on all 3 tanks.

Even with all 3 full then tilting 2 degrees would only change total wheel weight by 150 pounds or so…which admittedly is more than I thought it would be (I did these calculations on the fly as I wrote this and didn't figure it out ahead of time)…but I'm not sure it's really significant in relation to the total weight on the left/right sides…and the 150 pound difference would actually get spread across all the wheels on one side or the other. When I did the moment calculation for our rig the fresh weight was split about 15/35/50 front to rear and the gray/black weight split about 60/22/18 front to rear.

So my conclusion (again, only from an engineering standpoint, I didn't actually try the left wheels off the scale method) is that for reasonable angles of tilt it just doesn't matter enough to be worthwhile. I don't remember what gradations H&L had on their scales when they did our wheel by wheel weighing…but looking at my records all the individual weights are a multiple of 25…so I'm guessing that their scale was calibrated in 25 pound increments…so even a wheel by wheel is only +/= 25 pounds and given the wheel weights we're talking about (2100 to 3100 in our case)…I remain unconvinced that even the 150 pound difference I guesstimated above isn't significant in most cases…and I was generous in my estimations so as to over rather than underestimate.

One does…of course…have to correctly determine the weight on each wheel/axle at the CAT scale and not goof up either that arithmetic or the arithmetic to figure out the pin weight…but that's pretty easy not go goof up. There are numerous spreadsheets for that on the web I found out after I made my own up and I even have one of Bill's and all of them give pretty much the same answers. The biggest problem would be finding a scale that one could actually get the left (or right) wheels off the scale with…all the ones I've seen at Pilots and such had column that would have prevented getting far enough over. So when I redid our numbers after picking up our 5500 in May…both for getting the new truck and having added some 'stuff' since H&L weighed us in 2013…I just assumed (since we had empty Bl/Gr and 20 or so gallons of fresh in the first case and almost empty Bl/Gr and 30 or so gallons of fresh the second time) that all the wheels maintained the same percentage of the total trailer axle weight. In actuality the front wheels would have picked up a little more than their previous share since the added weight is mostly in the basement…but all our numbers are still well within spec even after I arbitrarily increased the percentage on the front axle by a bit to SWAG our new wheel weights…our total axles are 1400 pounds more than in 2012…and we're still 800 or so pounds within spec on our heaviest axle with 200 of that on the heavy side.



-- Edited by Neil and Connie on Monday 15th of August 2016 01:51:24 PM



-- Edited by Neil and Connie on Monday 15th of August 2016 02:04:49 PM

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Neil ... your point about water weight is (IMO) why my LR wheel is my heaviest ... that's where my fresh water tank is with about 50 gallons in it. Since my kitchen slide (with residential fridge) is over the two left wheels and biased toward the front, I would have bet that my LF wheel would have been my heavy corner. I guess the 400 lbs of water trumps the fridge. Great example of why we not only should weigh our rigs, but that it needs to periodically be redone, to ensure nothing has changed.



-- Edited by RonC on Monday 15th of August 2016 08:11:10 PM

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2016 Ford F350, King Ranch, DRW, 3.73's, 4x4, CC, 6.7 Powerstroke, remote control air lift system

2017 Durango Gold 381REF (41 ft, 5 slides), MORryde IS, 8K Disc brakes, GY G114  LR H Tires, 27,320 lbs CGVW

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Neil and Connie wrote:
Bill and Linda wrote:

Good for you, Ron, if you can make it work.  Let's all just understand the technique and limitations as to accuracy that can be induced under the wrong conditions.  I've just seen single wheel weighting done incorrectly and it doesn't take much to cause large errors.  As I said YMMV. 


I know that supposedly having the rig not level changes the weights…I've read that in multiple places and I'm not gonna say it's wrong but I can say that from an engineering and weight distribution standpoint…any errors caused by using the 'left wheels off the scale' method have got to pretty small. Let's do a little adult beverage bar napkin calculating (I had to change this from the original word since Activeboard asterisked a potential 4 letter word out) and see what they might be. **WARNING. Engineering geekspeak below. The TL*DR (Too Long-Didn't Read) conclusion is that tilting the rig most likely doesn't matter for reasonable degrees of tilt.

The weight on each wheel depends on trailer construction, basement loading, and water tank loading…but all of those remain pretty constant even if you tilt the rig a couple of degrees (and I think it would only be a couple of degrees maximum using this method). The only appreciable change in the loading on a particular wheel would be due to the water sloshing a bit to the low side of the tank…but just how much is that. Using our NH tank locations and capacities for example…if you had half full tanks and tilted the rig 2 degrees one way or the other what would happen? Half gray and black is 34 gallons or 282 pounds each and half fresh is 50 or 330 pounds. What you're really talking about is how much the center of gravity shifted in the tank and what that does to the weight. Looking at the tank dimensions…for a 2 degree tilt you're not going to move the center of gravity more than an inch or so; let's be generous and call it 2 inches…although my guess having not bothered to do the detailed calculation is that even an inch is overly generous. (Actually it wasn't a matter of not bothering as much as one has to do a whole Moment of Inertia calculation to figure out how much it moved and while my spreadsheet can certainly do the arithmetic for me I can't recall all the formulas I would need off the top of  my head and at least for this level of guess it's overkill and I was too lazy to google the formulas anyway.) The moment arm (CG to trailer centerline) for the level tank is about 35 inches or so and the moment arm for the wheel is about 48. With a black or gray tank of 282 pounds that's 9870 inch pounds which gets divided by the 48 inch moment arm to the wheel or about 205 pounds at the wheel (the rest of the weight gets transferred to/from the other side wheel. Moving the moment arm 2 inches bigger results in 10434 inch pounds which using the wheel moment arm is 217 pounds at the wheel…so tilting by 2 degrees changes the wheel weight by 55 pounds or so. Gray and fresh water tanks would be similar numbers…and that's assuming you actually traveled with half full on all 3 tanks.

Even with all 3 full then tilting 2 degrees would only change total wheel weight by 150 pounds or so…which admittedly is more than I thought it would be (I did these calculations on the fly as I wrote this and didn't figure it out ahead of time)…but I'm not sure it's really significant in relation to the total weight on the left/right sides…and the 150 pound difference would actually get spread across all the wheels on one side or the other. When I did the moment calculation for our rig the fresh weight was split about 15/35/50 front to rear and the gray/black weight split about 60/22/18 front to rear.

So my conclusion (again, only from an engineering standpoint, I didn't actually try the left wheels off the scale method) is that for reasonable angles of tilt it just doesn't matter enough to be worthwhile. I don't remember what gradations H&L had on their scales when they did our wheel by wheel weighing…but looking at my records all the individual weights are a multiple of 25…so I'm guessing that their scale was calibrated in 25 pound increments…so even a wheel by wheel is only +/= 25 pounds and given the wheel weights we're talking about (2100 to 3100 in our case)…I remain unconvinced that even the 150 pound difference I guesstimated above isn't significant in most cases…and I was generous in my estimations so as to over rather than underestimate.

One does…of course…have to correctly determine the weight on each wheel/axle at the CAT scale and not goof up either that arithmetic or the arithmetic to figure out the pin weight…but that's pretty easy not go goof up. There are numerous spreadsheets for that on the web I found out after I made my own up and I even have one of Bill's and all of them give pretty much the same answers. The biggest problem would be finding a scale that one could actually get the left (or right) wheels off the scale with…all the ones I've seen at Pilots and such had column that would have prevented getting far enough over. So when I redid our numbers after picking up our 5500 in May…both for getting the new truck and having added some 'stuff' since H&L weighed us in 2013…I just assumed (since we had empty Bl/Gr and 20 or so gallons of fresh in the first case and almost empty Bl/Gr and 30 or so gallons of fresh the second time) that all the wheels maintained the same percentage of the total trailer axle weight. In actuality the front wheels would have picked up a little more than their previous share since the added weight is mostly in the basement…but all our numbers are still well within spec even after I arbitrarily increased the percentage on the front axle by a bit to SWAG our new wheel weights…our total axles are 1400 pounds more than in 2012…and we're still 800 or so pounds within spec on our heaviest axle with 200 of that on the heavy side.



-- Edited by Neil and Connie on Monday 15th of August 2016 01:51:24 PM



-- Edited by Neil and Connie on Monday 15th of August 2016 02:04:49 PM


Neil, I actually agree with your ME analysis as far as "level trailer" is concerned.  The error comes if one of the wheel on, lets say the passenger side front on a dual wheel trailer, is higher than the rear wheel on the same side.  If that is the case the front one will be taking more load.  That's why when leveling ramps are used one should always put them under both wheels on the same side so as not to overload one wheel.  That's kind of the short version.  I've seen this demonstrated as to how much error can be induced more than once with individual wheel scales showing exactly the problem I've tried to describe.  But to each their own methods. Most times it won't matter much - except when it does.    



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I think DRV did something wrong one tire seems too high.

<a rel=i.imgur.com/PfcSnxBl.jpg">
<a rel=i.imgur.com/cQn8pN8l.jpg">

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We generally travel with 25-30 gallons of fresh and empty black/gray…no real reason to carry all that weight along. 



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Bill and Linda wrote:

Neil, I actually agree with your ME analysis as far as "level trailer" is concerned.  The error comes if one of the wheel on, lets say the passenger side front on a dual wheel trailer, is higher than the rear wheel on the same side.  If that is the case the front one will be taking more load.  That's why when leveling ramps are used one should always put them under both wheels on the same side so as not to overload one wheel.  That's kind of the short version.  I've seen this demonstrated as to how much error can be induced more than once with individual wheel scales showing exactly the problem I've tried to describe.  But to each their own methods. Most times it won't matter much - except when it does.    


 Yeah…I  guess you would need the wheels not on the scale reasonably level front to back for maximum accuracy of the method.

Somebody wondered how the method differs with a 3 axle trailer…for that one you weight one time with all trailer axles on the trailer section of the scale…move the front axle up to the middle scale and reweigh, then move the middle axle to the middle scale and reweigh again…this gives you all  3 trailer axle weights. Repeat with the left (or right, either way works) and that gives you the left or right wheel weights and then the others are simple math.

I can see how one would want a relatively level side off of the scale for maximum accuracy…both side to side as well as front to rear to prevent the issue you've highlighted above.

I actually had no idea what the answer would be when I started that post…so it wasn't like I was trying to prove anything other than "Gee whiz, I wonder what effect a tilted trailer really has."

 



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Cummins12V98 wrote:

I think DRV did something wrong one tire seems too high.

i.imgur.com/PfcSnxBl.jpg">
i.imgur.com/cQn8pN8l.jpg">


 

Assuming I am reading the sheet correctly, referring to this sheet:  http://i.imgur.com/PfcSnxBl.jpg  - sure looks like the front axle is 500lb over on the "Off Door" side and 510lb over on the Door Side.  4,000lbs per side is the top  weight rating according to the #8000 check box on the sheet.  4,000lbs per side.  Likewise the Off Door rear axle is 380lbs over.  So that's three wheels (not tires - axles) over - again if I am interpreting correctly.  Is this a dry weight - at delivery before loading with any personal items?

Is it possible you have 9K axles?  The sheet says 8K.  9K would naturally give you 4,500 per wheel.  I know DRV was moving to 9K on many of their rigs because they were overloading he 8K's - especially with the Elite but the MS as well.  Not nocking the product, just a weight scale fact.  ("H" tires are fine as you know, its the axles in question.)

The rear axle of the truck, according the other CAT scale sheet, is over its rating by 130lbs.  RAWR of 9,750 vs. 9,880 on the CAT sheet.

The pin weight did just sneak under the recommend max percentage at 24.6%.  But that is under 25%.

Don't understand the checks on box on the Pinbox list of 21,000 AND 23,000.  Hope its 23,000 or more by the 22,950 listed in the total unit weight at the bottom.

Not criticizing anything.  Just reading numbers vs. ratings.



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Bill and Linda wrote:
Cummins12V98 wrote:

I think DRV did something wrong one tire seems too high.

i.imgur.com/PfcSnxBl.jpg">
i.imgur.com/cQn8pN8l.jpg">


 

Assuming I am reading the sheet correctly, referring to this sheet:  http://i.imgur.com/PfcSnxBl.jpg  - sure looks like the front axle is 500lb over on the "Off Door" side and 510lb over on the Door Side.  4,000lbs per side is the top  weight rating according to the #8000 check box on the sheet.  4,000lbs per side.  Likewise the Off Door rear axle is 380lbs over.  So that's three wheels (not tires - axles) over - again if I am interpreting correctly.  Is this a dry weight - at delivery before loading with any personal items?

Is it possible you have 9K axles?  The sheet says 8K.  9K would naturally give you 4,500 per wheel.  I know DRV was moving to 9K on many of their rigs because they were overloading he 8K's - especially with the Elite but the MS as well.  Not nocking the product, just a weight scale fact.  ("H" tires are fine as you know, its the axles in question.)

The rear axle of the truck, according the other CAT scale sheet, is over its rating by 130lbs.  RAWR of 9,750 vs. 9,880 on the CAT sheet.

The pin weight did just sneak under the recommend max percentage at 24.6%.  But that is under 25%.

Don't understand the checks on box on the Pinbox list of 21,000 AND 23,000.  Hope its 23,000 or more by the 22,950 listed in the total unit weight at the bottom.

Not criticizing anything.  Just reading numbers vs. ratings.

 

MORryde gave me a clean bill of health even at my weights.  They confirmed the spring offset was well within their ratings and the springs looked great.  We did discuss going 9K but the FACT is the structure is exactly the same on the 8 and 9K also the brake pads are the same.  The springs are the same other then the 9K are a 36 I believe and the 8 is a 30.  Basically the same exact spring just stiffer that I could go with but there is no need since mine are well within spec.  The rotor, spindle and bearings are beefier as is the caliper but again the pads are exactly the same.  Surface area stops the RV.

 

The weight that seemed off was the door side weight difference of 575# I believe.  Door was not too far off.

 

I changed the TrailAir kingpin bolts to 3/4" frame bolts so I am comfortable with that also.  I know the rear truck is over 130#, don't think it's going to fail.  I had a Southbend clutch, pressure plate and flywheel in my tool box that I am sure weighs that much.  I am clearing out some "STUFF" in my basement now that we are at our home base for the Summer.  So my truck is within all axle and tow ratings.  RV is over but the 8K IS system is no doubt stronger than 8K.

 

Pic shows the same structure between the 8 & 9K.  Upper is the 9K lower 8K.


     



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Cummins12V98 wrote:
Bill and Linda wrote:
Cummins12V98 wrote:

I think DRV did something wrong one tire seems too high.

i.imgur.com/PfcSnxBl.jpg">
i.imgur.com/cQn8pN8l.jpg">


Assuming I am reading the sheet correctly, referring to this sheet:  http://i.imgur.com/PfcSnxBl.jpg  - sure looks like the front axle is 500lb over on the "Off Door" side and 510lb over on the Door Side.  4,000lbs per side is the top  weight rating according to the #8000 check box on the sheet.  4,000lbs per side.  Likewise the Off Door rear axle is 380lbs over.  So that's three wheels (not tires - axles) over - again if I am interpreting correctly.  Is this a dry weight - at delivery before loading with any personal items?

Is it possible you have 9K axles?  The sheet says 8K.  9K would naturally give you 4,500 per wheel.  I know DRV was moving to 9K on many of their rigs because they were overloading he 8K's - especially with the Elite but the MS as well.  Not nocking the product, just a weight scale fact.  ("H" tires are fine as you know, its the axles in question.)

The rear axle of the truck, according the other CAT scale sheet, is over its rating by 130lbs.  RAWR of 9,750 vs. 9,880 on the CAT sheet.

The pin weight did just sneak under the recommend max percentage at 24.6%.  But that is under 25%.

Don't understand the checks on box on the Pinbox list of 21,000 AND 23,000.  Hope its 23,000 or more by the 22,950 listed in the total unit weight at the bottom.

Not criticizing anything.  Just reading numbers vs. ratings.

 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

MORryde gave me a clean bill of health even at my weights.  They confirmed the spring offset was well within their ratings and the springs looked great.  We did discuss going 9K but the FACT is the structure is exactly the same on the 8 and 9K also the brake pads are the same.  The springs are the same other then the 9K are a 36 I believe and the 8 is a 30.  Basically the same exact spring just stiffer that I could go with but there is no need since mine are well within spec.  The rotor, spindle and bearings are beefier as is the caliper but again the pads are exactly the same.  Surface area stops the RV.

The weight that seemed off was the door side weight difference of 575# I believe.  Door was not too far off.

I changed the TrailAir kingpin bolts to 3/4" frame bolts so I am comfortable with that also.  I know the rear truck is over 130#, don't think it's going to fail.  I had a Southbend clutch, pressure plate and flywheel in my tool box that I am sure weighs that much.  I am clearing out some "STUFF" in my basement now that we are at our home base for the Summer.  So my truck is within all axle and tow ratings.  RV is over but the 8K IS system is no doubt stronger than 8K.

     


I've seen the 9K axles in person. Some components as you indicated are larger on the 9K.  The Kodiak hubs I saw on the 9K were indeed stamped "9K."   I don't take issue with anything MOR/ryde or you said.  Just responding to ratings.  The MOR/ryde IS suspension is extremely beefy.  But I have seen a DRV MS with an IS cross member (connecting boxed steel) bent up  - bowed - from overload.  But that MS had +10K on one axle.  Owner was, more or less, oblivious to the weight situation.  'Just wasn't sure about why the rig's tires looked "funny."  A new owner and first RV as I recall.

Nonetheless, what DRV can "sell" and put a legal weight sticker on must be based on the published ratings of the components and as you know that maximum rating is based on the lowest rated component.  So that's why DRV started using 9K axles on some of its rigs as they had, on the sticker, marginal cargo carrying capacities and owners were indeed overloading those rated capacities "day one."

I agree the truck's rear axle won't break over 130lbs.  But its the rear axle on most trucks, especially those with high GCVWR ratings (i.e. how big a trailer can it tow), that is the limiting factor for the truck as a tow vehicle for  5th wheel.  That rear axle rating is the one none of the manufactures like to talk about in their advertisements and is usually harder to find unless one goes hunting for the full set of numbers.

Just conversation - nothing more.  Interesting information all around.



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1998 Volvo 610
2009 Carrilite 36 MAX 1

Truck front axle- GAWR 12000 Actual- 9825 With Trailer
Rear Axle GAWR 19000 Actual- 12950 With Trailer
22775

Trailer has 8k axles- MorRyde LE-

Front Driver Side- 4150 Curb Side- 3650
Rear Driver - 3975 -3550


15325 on the trailer axles
4850 Pin 24%
20175 Trailer +
22775 Truck =
42950
Drivers side is significantly heavier. The full wall slide houses all kitchen items, 12cuft fridge, dishwasher, washer, dryer, and separate 5cuft upright freezer, TV's fireplace, h20 heater.


We are over the factory ratings on the sticker
But we are on 17.5" tires, and 8k suspension
Water tank is located in front of axles 1/2 way to the pin. Most water added to the tank goes to the pin weight. We generally travel with 35-50 gallons.


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Bill to do it over again I would do the 9K axles but since I was within their spec I felt it was a waste of my money and they felt the same.

Big gripe I have is the brake pads are the EXACT same on the 8 and 9K. I had 9,580# on the rear axle before I had MORryde add the 3" risers, I now sit level.

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OK ... I picked up my new 2016 King Ranch F350 DRW CC today. The trailer weights remain unchanged, but the truck weights change, so I'll be going thru the "exercise" again. My gains are: greatly increased GCVW, GAW (F&R), GVW, etc. I will also benefit from more HP, Torque, a bigger turbo and injectors, better exhaust brake, improved transmission, better towing ratio of 3.73, and (believe it or not) a better ride! Plus the King Ranch is a pretty good lookin' ride IMO ... but I am from Texas 😜. The SRW truck was a little stiff in the back end when not loaded. This DRW truck is cushy in comparison ... really a quiet and smooth ride. Will need to take a trip to figure out how all of this translates to an improved towing experience, but I'm anticipating good things ... will report on the outcome in a future post.



-- Edited by RonC on Thursday 18th of August 2016 11:08:22 PM



-- Edited by RonC on Thursday 1st of September 2016 06:31:07 PM

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One quick additional comment on the split axle weight discussion. On the CAT scale I used, the scale pads and surrounding "non-weighing" framework, appear to be completely level with each other. If there is any difference, it's gotta be less than a 1/16 of an inch ... I would consider it to be on the same level as the scale pads. So the "tilting" discussion is a non issue, IMO.

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RonC wrote:

OK ... I picked up my new 2016 King Ranch F350 DRW CC today. The trailer weights remain unchanged, but the truck weights change, so I'll be going thru the "exercise" again. My gains are: greatly increased GCVW, GAW (F&R), GVW, etc. I will also benefit from more HP, Torque, a bigger turbo and injectors, better exhaust brake, I improved transmission, better towing ratio of 3.73, and (believe it or not) a better ride! Plus the King Ranch is a pretty good lookin' ride IMO ... but I am from Texas 😜. The SRW truck was a little stiff in the back end when not loaded. This DRW truck is cushy in comparison ... really a quiet and smooth ride. Will need to take a trip to figure out how all of this translates to an improved towing experience, but I'm anticipating good things ... will report on the outcome in a future post.



-- Edited by RonC on Thursday 18th of August 2016 11:08:22 PM


 Sounds nice.  I am betting air bags are in your future if your RV is on the heavier side.



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Cummins12V98 ... I'm not as heavy as you are. My 5th wheel weighs 15,180 total (3,200 of that is carried by the truck as pin weight). I have thousands of pounds of reserve in truck GVW, rear axle GVW and CGVR. All in, I weigh a bit less than 25,000 lbs. and my truck is rated at 32,100 CGVW. However, the DRW truck is 2" lower than the SRW truck it replaced. Depending on truck sag when I hook up, I may have to make some adjustments. My hitch (Hensley BD3) can be adjusted up to 6" to level up the trailer. I already had about 6" of bed rail to trailer clearance, so if adjustment is needed, it will only increase my bed rail to trailer clearance. I need to hook up the rig and do a little measureing to determine what is needed, if anything, to ensure a level ride for my trailer.

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RonC l have seen many Fords riding rear low. I am guessing it's because they already ride near level without a load. Many will add bags to level the truck back out again. Let us know what you end up doing. Looks like the 17's will not be the same and will have a higher rear to begin with.

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Cummins12V98 wrote:

RonC l have seen many Fords riding rear low. I am guessing it's because they already ride near level without a load. Many will add bags to level the truck back out again. Let us know what you end up doing. Looks like the 17's will not be the same and will have a higher rear to begin with.


That's correct about the 2017 F-450.  After 9 years of an anemic rear axle rating vs. towing rating, actually less than the Chevy 3500HD, the F-450 pickup is being raised to 9,900lbs. This is due to, among other things, Ford going to a boxed frame, like others have had since 2011, as opposed to a channel frame.  This is a very good thing for real world 5th wheel towing.  The RAWR was the biggest limitation for the F-450; not so much the F-350 which is still, for 2017, higher than the F-450.  The F-350 is now 10,350 for the RAWR.  (Go figure.)  But with a 9,900lb rear axle rating the F-450 will now, in some circumstances, be able to carry on the rear axle a truly heavy trailer's high pin weight and not be overloaded by specifications.  One must still "do the math."  YMMV

Regardless, IMO, if I were looking at a new truck and I had a larger trailer in mind - I'd wait as long as I could to purchase the 2017 if I wanted the Ford product.  By waiting as long as I could I mean, personally, I don't care to purchase version 1.0 of anything (Ford, GM, Chevy, RAM - doesn't matter) and the 2017 F-450 / F-350, etc. are version 1.0 for a lot of structural items except the engine and transmission which are basically unchanged except for (we hope) an exhaust brake that is effective.  Indications are much more positive in that regard concerning the exhaust brake.

BTW, the rear axle rating of the F-450 "pickup" is still well below the commercial F-450's offering.  Better but still way below the commercial F-450 like Howard and Linda have from 2005.

This is not a knock of the Ford products or pushing other products.  Just stating facts based on published specifications - not limited marketing material.



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Bill ... my reason for going with the 2016 DRW F350 was $$$. I got a King Ranch all tricked out with an MSRP of $73,800 for $60,300. That might be the best new vehicle deal I ever got. Ford has a VERY aggressive 2016 close out to get ready for the 2017's. The comparable 2017 would have been $10,000 (or more) higher. In 5 or 10 years, they will both be very close in value, so that difference is lost forever. A plus to trading my 2014 for a 2016 is I know how everything works ... nav system, Sync, etc. A very familiar truck for me ... no learning curve, and at my age, that's a good thing😜  Plus, I agree with you about version 1.0 of anything.  The 2016 is a proven product with a good history.  I "think" the new all aluminum Fords will do well ... but one never knows.  I'll let others find that out for themselves.



-- Edited by RonC on Sunday 21st of August 2016 09:50:45 AM

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BTW, Cummins12V98 was right, I'm a little low in the front of the trailer (1") due to truck sag.  To fix the trailer low and truck sag ... it looks like air bags to me.



-- Edited by RonC on Saturday 20th of August 2016 08:32:26 PM



-- Edited by RonC on Sunday 21st of August 2016 09:20:57 AM



-- Edited by RonC on Sunday 21st of August 2016 09:51:49 AM



-- Edited by RonC on Friday 16th of September 2016 08:37:18 PM

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RonC wrote:

Bill ... my reason for going with the 2016 DRW F350 was $$$. I got a King Ranch all tricked out with an MSRP of $73,800 for $60,300. That might be the best new vehicle deal I ever got. Ford has a VERY aggressive 2016 close out to get ready for the 2017's. The comparable 2017 would have been $10,000 (or more) higher. In 5 or 10 years, they will both be very close in value, so that difference is lost forever. A plus to trading my 2014 for a 2016 is I know how everything works ... nav system, Sync, etc. A very familiar truck for me ... no learning curve, and at my age, that's a good thing😜  Plus, I agree with you about version 1.0 of anything.  The 2016 is a proven product with a good history.  I "think" the new all aluminum Fords will do well ... but one never knows.  I'll let others find that out for themselves.



-- Edited by RonC on Sunday 21st of August 2016 09:50:45 AM


Perfectly valid decision as long as all the rating numbers work.  "A choice." Enjoy the new ride.  That's a nice truck.

Following the "level" business you brought up:  I might consider some air bags to level the total rig on the money as we used to say.  Yes, I understand the OCD concerning this.  Sometimes OCD is not a bad thing.   The front right tire of the trailer is usually the heaviest and if you run low in the front then that adds additional weight to that tire.

What one really wants is the truck to run "normal," not sag (sometimes that is not "level" on the bed rails BTW - depends on the truck) and the trailer to run level.  That does make a big difference in a lot of respects including handling.  Air bags can offer that final "fine tune" that doesn't seem to matter, but sometimes does.  "Ask me how I know this."  And, again, some of this depends on how much one travels.  If one moves the rig once a year "up or down" the country might not be worth the expense. But if one is going to travel and not simply "reside" then then these investments make more sense.

 



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Bill & Linda
2014 New Horizons Majestic F37RLTSS 96

2016 RAM 5500HD \ 4-Wheel Drive \ Link Air Ride
Classy Chassis RV Hauler Bed Conversion \ Aux Fuel Tank 



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Yeah ... I agree w you on this. I have an appointment to have a set of airbags installed on Monday. When the rear axle remains level and there some unusual angle introduced into the drive line by the truck squatting it is possible to induce some shimmy at certain rpm's ... mostly on start up as a truck tries to get a heavy load rolling. Best to keep everything level for both the truck driveline health and the tires of the trailer to equally share the load.

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2016 Ford F350, King Ranch, DRW, 3.73's, 4x4, CC, 6.7 Powerstroke, remote control air lift system

2017 Durango Gold 381REF (41 ft, 5 slides), MORryde IS, 8K Disc brakes, GY G114  LR H Tires, 27,320 lbs CGVW

Full Timers class of 2016



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RonC wrote:

Yeah ... I agree w you on this. I have an appointment to have a set of airbags installed on Monday. When the rear axle remains level and there some unusual angle introduced into the drive line by the truck squatting it is possible to induce some shimmy at certain rpm's ... mostly on start up as a truck tries to get a heavy load rolling. Best to keep everything level for both the truck driveline health and the tires of the trailer to equally share the load.


Ron - a suggestion:  It may be worth getting airbags with a built in pump to allow you to adjust the pressure / height easily.  If you are going to use the truck as your "touring" or daily driver it is my past experience that adjusting the air pressure makes a big difference in the ride quality solo vs. towing.  The ride quality of the 2016 is pretty good solo.  But if you have air bags pumped to 75lbs when not towing you will likely get a pretty bad ride.  "Ask me how I know this" from past experience.  (In the case of my current rig that's not the case.  The Link air suspension - no springs - just air - is fully automatic and adjusts to the load on its own.  Super ride towing or solo.  Pretty amazing actually how good it is in a Class V MDT.  All air bag systems are not the same.  "It depends.")   



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Bill & Linda
2014 New Horizons Majestic F37RLTSS 96

2016 RAM 5500HD \ 4-Wheel Drive \ Link Air Ride
Classy Chassis RV Hauler Bed Conversion \ Aux Fuel Tank 



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I would advise in cab with each side being able to be controlled.

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Cummins12V98 wrote:

I would advise in cab with each side being able to be controlled.


Yea, almost goes without saying.  But now that you said it, we had that system in the 3500HD Chevy and found it very useful.  Especially when I needed to lower the truck to raise the rear end of the rig to clear some deep road culverts when backing up an incline.  Not off road, but on a residential fully paved street. We always changed air pressure towing or solo and it made for a really good ride.

Classy Chassis installed this system for us as part of the total up fit. Each bag can be adjusted in 1lb increments. There are two programmable preset buttons which work well for towing / solo.

  https://www.airliftcompany.com/shop/72000/



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Bill & Linda
2014 New Horizons Majestic F37RLTSS 96

2016 RAM 5500HD \ 4-Wheel Drive \ Link Air Ride
Classy Chassis RV Hauler Bed Conversion \ Aux Fuel Tank 



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Nothing like first hand experience. Thanks for the suggestions. Airbags installed with remote in cab controls on Monday!!

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Ron and Janice

 

2016 Ford F350, King Ranch, DRW, 3.73's, 4x4, CC, 6.7 Powerstroke, remote control air lift system

2017 Durango Gold 381REF (41 ft, 5 slides), MORryde IS, 8K Disc brakes, GY G114  LR H Tires, 27,320 lbs CGVW

Full Timers class of 2016



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I completely agree with Bill…I would put the rear airbags (Airlift or equivalent) on anything that didn't have an air rear suspension. Best reason is that if you're anywhere near the rear axle limit most pickups will sag in the rear (at least most of the ones we've seen). We added them to our F450 (before the 5500HD) and they definitely leveled us out and made towing more comfortable.

We did not get the cab inflate/deflate option…because we were not using the F450 for a daily driver, had a Mazda for that. As such…we pumped them to 80 or so psi for the whole travel season. The few times we did have to drive the truck not towing…it definitely rode much harder than with them deflated to the non towing 10 or so psi.

If you're using it for daily driver…get the cab controller. I don't see any need for the dual side cab controller at all…when towing all the weight is on the centerline of the truck so you need to inflate equally…and when you're not towing you're going to want them down around 5-10 psi anyway for nice ride purposes.

All that said…the Link Ultraryde air suspension on our 5500HD rides way, way better than the F450 ever did…and it's all automatic. Hitch up and the rear end sinks but the air tank brings it right back up in 10 seconds. Unhitch and the opposite happens so it's always level (at least the truck is…or thinks it is…we tend to have rain pool in the forward end of our bed when it's sitting in the campground). Really nice ride.

 



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I have about 1,600 lbs left in reserve on rear axle when fully loaded to travel, so not really near my axle limit, but the truck definately sags. I haven't measured how much yet, but I will and then use that number to pump up to ... provided it doesn't make the trailer nose high. My last truck (SRW F350) was a little tail high when unloaded and when loaded was level. While only an inch or so low, I can definately see it and measure it, so it's not "close enough". As you guys have said, the airbags will fix that. It will be our daily driver, so the in cab control will work out best for us. Appreciate all the input.



-- Edited by RonC on Wednesday 24th of August 2016 04:08:21 PM

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Ron and Janice

 

2016 Ford F350, King Ranch, DRW, 3.73's, 4x4, CC, 6.7 Powerstroke, remote control air lift system

2017 Durango Gold 381REF (41 ft, 5 slides), MORryde IS, 8K Disc brakes, GY G114  LR H Tires, 27,320 lbs CGVW

Full Timers class of 2016

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