HighwayRanger wrote:

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We are leaning toward a Lifestyle 39FB, because I don't think we can justify the cost of a New Horizon's fifth wheel. Still have a Newmar Dutch Star on the radar, but it is similarly spendy (to the NH fiver.)

Only thing for sure is that we will tow a fiver with a new Ram.

Roy

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 UH, is there anything else?  

OToole wrote:

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I’m in the market for a new RAM 3500 dually in preparation for going full time this year. Does the auto-level rear air suspension system provide any real value from a utility stand point, i.e. ride comfort, rear load leveling, etc.? I have looked at dealer’s inventory online in a 6 or 7 state area and have not seen one truck equipped with the auto-level rear air suspension system. If it is really a good option to have I may have to order a truck rather than choose from existing dealer stock.

 

Thanks

Mike

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Mike:

Yes, the rear air (auto leveling) suspension is a very desirable option. IMO, it is required for best operation based on experience.  It improves the solo ride and towing ride and likewise will level the truck with the fiver connected.  Level running of the truck and trailer is critical to best towing (safety) operations. Highly recommended for any RV towing truck.

The RAM 3500HD is a excellent choice and one I would seriously consider due to the safety of the adjustable and very effective exhaust brake coupled with and the braking capability of the transmission.  I do recommend the commercial grade Aisin “AS-69RC” transmission.  BTW, it “drives” really well.  Very responsive.

I would order the truck so you can get exactly the setup you need.  Buying a tow vehicle is not like buying a car, IMO.  Get it right the first time.

biggaRView wrote:

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Sorry to wander a bit off the subject but....

Bill, are you softening on the RAM?  Yeah, it's a great truck, but I rather got the impression you could not swayed from the GM product, for your situation. Since some of us may, more or less, be duplicating your rig set-up regarding weights and such, Do you still think the GM 3500HD equipped with the hauler bed is superior to the RAM because the increased weight of the RAM over GM? I realize below a certain trailer weight threshold either truck is more than capable, but as you get up against towing capability limits one will edge out. Where, in your opinion is that line? Does GM offer a similar rear air suspension system or would that be aftermarket? Should I be looking at aftermarket as opposed to OEM?

FYI the heaviest trailer we currently have under consideration is a tad over 19K GVWR.

Brian

-- Edited by biggaRView on Friday 13th of March 2015 09:20:15 AM

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 Here is a pic of my 11 RAM with 20K in tow.  Air bags in rear set at 30psi.  My new RAM is a far more capable truck but the 11 handled the 20K with ease.  My new MS on order will be even heavier.

Terry and Jo wrote:

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Cummins12V98 wrote:

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HighwayRanger wrote:

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We are leaning toward a Lifestyle 39FB, because I don't think we can justify the cost of a New Horizon's fifth wheel. Still have a Newmar Dutch Star on the radar, but it is similarly spendy (to the NH fiver.)

Only thing for sure is that we will tow a fiver with a new Ram.

Roy

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 UH, is there anything else?  

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Uhhh...

...yes.

Terry

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 Sorry I could not resist!

biggaRView wrote:

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Sorry to wander a bit off the subject but....

Bill, are you softening on the RAM?  Yeah, it's a great truck, but I rather got the impression you could not swayed from the GM product, for your situation. Since some of us may, more or less, be duplicating your rig set-up regarding weights and such, Do you still think the GM 3500HD equipped with the hauler bed is superior to the RAM because the increased weight of the RAM over GM? I realize below a certain trailer weight threshold either truck is more than capable, but as you get up against towing capability limits one will edge out. Where, in your opinion is that line? Does GM offer a similar rear air suspension system or would that be aftermarket? Should I be looking at aftermarket as opposed to OEM?

FYI the heaviest trailer we currently have under consideration is a tad over 19K GVWR.

Brian
-- Edited by biggaRView on Friday 13th of March 2015 09:20:15 AM

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Brain:

I’m not a “fan boy” as some might think.  Never have been.  Within specifications the Chevy / GM 33500HD truck is a proven and very dependable tow vehicle which I prefer within it rated capabilities due to experience over many years. (After 160,000+ miles I have some experience as to towing / reliability issues including most all of the western Rocky Mountains.)  But being an engineer at heart I’m interested in specifications and capability and base my recommendations and suggestions accordingly. Not some marketing brochure. The RAM3500HD’s, properly equipped are very, very good trucks and have as good a transmission (the -69 version that is) and exhaust braking system as the Chevy – Duramax – Allison.  Both trucks, properly equipped are equally comparable but you still have to run the numbers depending on application and extra equipment added.  “It depends.”

The 30,000 lb tow rating of the RAM3500HD (and Ford-F-450) means nothing because you run out of rear axle rating long before you get to a 30,000lb 5^th wheel trailer.  (Ever notice the marketing pictures of the RAM – and Ford – have gooseneck trailers?  There is a reason for that.)  The Chevy 3500HD actually has a bit better “usable” rear axle rating than the RAM 3500HD because the RAM is so heavy (empty) much of that extra rear axle rating is used up before you connect the trailer; or more specifically put on a hauler bed.  I’ve done the math for all three brands based on their specs.  The Chevy 3500HD and the RAM 3500HD come out the best in most applications where you have a lot of rear axle weight, “depending” again due to the rear axle ratings.  (If interested in the Ford product the F-350 actually has better rear axle capacities than pickup version of the F-450 at last review.)

I really like the handling of the RAM3500HD and its exhaust brake is really, really good and is fully adjustable to need.  Same for the RAM5500HD.

So, yes, I believe the Chevy drive train (engine / Allison transmission / exhaust brake / turbo brake) is the standard within its specifications – it’s proven. But I also believe now the RAM (starting with MY ~2012) is a comparable truck in many respects and that’s why I have recommended it to others; including the tow king, the RAM5500HD which I have helped a few people build.  Great truck and so far all I’ve helped have been pleased.  (Don’t bother with the RAM4500HD – go right to the 5500HD if you need more capacity according to the math.)

I just say all this to say my opinions are based on engineering number evaluations and not just because “I bought one” in so many words.  As always, “It depends.”

With the 19,000lb trailer you propose either the RAM3500HD or the Chevy 3500HD will most likely be good.  Even an F-450 if no hauler bed due to the lower 9,100lb rear axle limitation. (Be careful of all brands bedrail to trailer clearance without a hauler bed.)  But I’d like to know more about the specific trailer pin weight and if you were planning on an aux tank (how big) and if a hauler bed was in the plan.  Those numbers, along with your “tools” all go into the spreadsheet.

As to the factory installed air-ride suspension – no GM does not offer that and you have do it after market.  However, you can do a manual air-system for a lot less money on a Chevy and that includes a pump to allow adjusts with and without the trailer.  But the RAM factory air-ride version is really nice and I would most likely get one if I were purchasing now.  Auto-leveling air-ride is a simple and proven system - but can be pricy.

Hope that helps.  It’s all based on a specific set of numbers and the rig in question – not brand or the “badge” on the side of the truck.  And yes, I would buy a RAM the next time if the numbers worked.  But it would probably be a 5500HD.  That's a ways off as the Chevy is fine.

Bill

biggaRView wrote:

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Nice truck. Can you characterize the '11 with the 3.42 gears in the towing department, oomph and or fuel economy with a 20K MS. I'm sure as you said in another thread, the 4.10s on the new PU will easily get it moving by comparison. I ask because we haven't decided to opt for those gears over the standard 3.73s. If we pick the RAM, it would have the Aisin tranny and the rear airbag suspension(or aftermarket equivalent) also.

Brian

-- Edited by biggaRView on Friday 13th of March 2015 10:03:00 AM

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 With the 3:42's I would ease into it from a stop then accelerate.  I came to the conclusion unless I was on flat ground with a tail wind I would get the best mileage locking 6th gear out.  When climbing 6% grades I would be around 55mph in 3rd gear with no engine or trans temp issues at all.  The truck performed flawlessly for 65K towing the 29K combined weight with 5K pin.

I have not towed the MS yet as I just turned over 500 miles.  I may hook up tomorrow for the fun of it and go dump the tank!

I can tell from driving the new 15 with air it will yank the 20K RV around with ease.  It takes off from a stop like there is no weight there compared to the 11.

I would never go with anything but 4:10's, why limit yourself?  I can tell you just driving around the 15 is getting 1-2 mpg better mileage.

FYI for the Dually there are no standard gears.  All three are options.  

When towing the 11 in 5th gear it is the same RPM as the 15 in 6th.  So that made me realize the rpm's were perfect for the 4:10's towing at 62 like I am used to doing.

I can tell you my new 15 could easily pull a 5th wheel up to it's Max towing specs.  GCVWR is 37,600# minus my truck weight ready to tow of around 9,750# leaves me with a tow rating of about 28K, with a 20% pin would fit into my 6K carrying capacity.  But reality is 25% pin is the norm so based on that I could tow a 24K 5er and still be within all specs.

30K towing is for a stripped 2wd RAM reg cab.  Late 2011 is when RAM came out with the 30K combined weight rating not 2012.  I question the comment on GM has more rear axle capacity.  My RAM has 9,750 rear axle rating and ready to tow my rear axle weighs about 3,850 So I am nearly 6K to be with in specs.

Once I tow I will give my impressions comparing the 15 to the 11.

Bill and Linda wrote:

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biggaRView wrote:

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Bill, you may recall you "walked" me through those numbers a while back via PM and a spreadsheet you emailed.  I've plugged in numerous "scenarios" since then. Thanks again, by the way. Based on the that data, we have narrowed it to the RAM 3500 or the GMC/Chevy 3500 DRWs. We like the hauler bed but that will put us uncomfortably close to limits on the RAM, less so on the GM. That would be using the 19K trailer, about 4200lbs of pin(we're using 22% to be safe for the calculation, though it will likely be lower based on our plan)... leaves us about 300 on the rear axle and 1500 CGVWR for the truck.(GM 3500HD). 60gal aux fuel tank planned. The 3.73 gears are also planned, 4.11 or 4.10 if we find a heavier trailer we like. (trying not to). Can't see us going to the 5500 RAM even though, physically, it's identical size-wise... there's insurance issues adding to the cost of ownership we'd like to avoid. Cindi is pretty adamant that HDTs are not in the picture... so they are out. (for now... never say never). Hopefully I have those numbers properly figured.

Brian

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 Brian:

I guess I was covering the bases for those reading along in addition to sending you the sheets. {Grin – as Howard would say}  Just providing info.  Nothing more.

I think you’ve got the numbers right.  That’s kind of what I found.

Remember the GM / Chevy only has 3.73 rear gears in the diesel. That’s all it needs and all that GM / Chevy has offered in a diesel since the early 2000’s.  They have increased ratings other ways other than just a higher rear end ratio.  New frame for one, like the RAM.  Kind of wish they had a 4.1 but I’ve never seen the truck lug, not even on extended 10% grades with the NH.  We need to remember the Duramax has a much broader RPM range than many other diesels. This helps with the 3.73 rear end and also with engine braking.  Red line when unloaded (engine braking) for the engine is 4,800 RPMs.  That would literally “blow up” some engines.

I’m glad you’re going with the hauler bed.  It really is a good idea on any of the trucks.  I got a note from a friend who just “scrunched” his F-450 into the trailer.  Not an “F-450” problem.  It’s a MY 2011 and forward truck issue with all the brands as they have increased in size.  I’ve measured them and they are all within 1” of each other as to clearance.

 Insurance point that I probably mentioned: The 3500HD RAM will move you into commercial insurance.  The Chevy 3500HD is just below that magic number and will be classified as private – non-commercial. Either way Miller Insurance can advise you for one.  Chevy did that “just below” rating on purpose and it saves money and trouble for some.

Seems like it is about time to get serious?  Hope so.

Bill 

Brain:

 

On Edit:  I should have mentioned – Actually no, the RAM 5500HD is 4” longer than the 3500HD “pickup” trucks.  Most pickups are 56” CA (cab to axle.)  The RAM 5500HD, as are most trucks in this class, are 60” CA. This can matter as the rails on the RAM5500HD can’t be shorted because the fuel tank is in the rear. On some trailers you need to check the king pin to the trailer drop front distance and make sure there is enough clearance behind the truck hauler bed bumper to the trailer.  99% of the time this is not an issue.  But once I ordered a tandem Peterbilt tractor and guess what, it didn’t fit the drop van trailer.  Never forgot that “woops” from now 40 years ago.

 

Bill

 

-- Edited by Bill and Linda on Friday 13th of March 2015 02:07:04 PM

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 I just talked to my Insurance agent with Farmers.  He said my RAM 3500 dually with 14K weight rating is NOT considered Commercial.  If it had a dump bed or flatbed used in commercial application it would be.  He said typically they start the Commercial rating at 16K.

So confirm with your agent before deciding!

Bill and Linda wrote:

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.....Seems like it is about time to get serious?  Hope so.

Bill

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 Still have to get a few things to fall into place, and an opportunity to go as early as late 2017 is being investigated. Till then a lot of heavy lifting has been done on the RV planning front and especially on the "what we can do with "X" and what will pull/stop it. Working the numbers has been quite revealing but also reassuring to know we aren't fooling ourselves either. In the meantime we are getting the S&B upto snuff and purging even though its still at least 2 1/2 years but more likely closer to 3 1/2 to go.

Time will tell, and thanks for the encouragement.

Roy, if you want that new truck smell... it's definitely going to cost you.  H&L bought their truck new but waited several years to add the hauler bed, so you could go that route to spread out the expense.  Alternatively you could buy late model used truck with low miles in excellent condition (the owner decided it was too much for him, or it was too expensive to operate or one of a dozen other reasons). You should be able to pick up one of those for under 40K fairly easily. Do you need all the bells and whistles of a 20K hauler bed?  You could probably put a package together for under 50K, a far cry from the 80K you mentioned.  It would still be a sweet ride. The chevy dealer near me is selling 2015 3500HDs DRW for under 50K, nicely equipped. The deals are out there. Or if you are in the market right now, WestwardHo (Sherry & Jesse) have a complete pkg... a very nice Trilogy 5er and GM 3500 DRW for about 82K... here's the link to the ad....

http://rv-dreams.activeboard.com/t58785120/2013-trilogy-5th-wheel-gmc-dually-truck-price-reduced/

It's a very nice set-up, with some highly recommended upgrades.

Thanks for sharing your impressions.  I still not convinced the 4.10s (4.11s in a GM configuration) are the way to go, for our situation. I'm 98% certain that we will not be towing over 20K. Even with today's relatively low fuel prices, I don't want to be lured into poorer fuel economy if the only reason in the pro side of 4.10 gearing is that they will start the rig from a standing start more easily. I'm not in a hurry off the line, so if the 3.73s can do that without straining the drive train or bogging down the engine then they should be upto the task in our scenario. Or am I missing something?

Brian

Your "I just know people always go bigger" comment... does that refer to the rig size or the rear axle ratio?

Sure enough, it looks like I assumed the 4.11s were an option on GM... NOPE! 20K is our outside upper tow limit for 3500HD type trucks. We have 5 rigs under active consideration, 4 are between 17.5K and 18.5K. One is a tad over 19K. So my calculations say the 3.73s should be fine. If you were managing with 3.42s with 20K then that makes me feel all the more comfortable with what we have planned.  My biggest restriction for the weight upper limit has more to do with braking and control than it does with ability to pull with that size truck. Still, the RAM is certainly well equipped and optionable to tow a rig far beyond what we have planned. Plus, I love their styling though that is certainly not a deciding factor. The optional auto-level rear suspension does seem to be a worthwhile upgrade. My biggest concern with the RAM 3500HD is the available pin weight if we decide to add a hauler bed (which is what we are leaning toward). So far, I can't make it work without some serious juggling of trailer loading or using a lighter hauler bed with fewer bells and whistles. I don't want to be required to think that hard. The only other option, so far, is to restrict trailer size. I like having options.

Still, it would be interesting to see a poll of 5er owners that reported Tow Vehicle type, model year, engine size, rear axle ratio, towed weight, fuel mileage both bobtailing and towing. Getting some real world numbers would be helpful for us newbs by assisting in the buying process and allowing us to make informed decisions as they relate to truck size, configuration, fuel mileage etc.

Brian

Brian, it is none of my business, but I would caution you about buying "just enough" truck in any one category. Pulling is no issue with these trucks - the limitations come in other areas. Since you are starting "fresh" you need to make sure you do not configure yourself into a tight corner.

I strongly advise a hauler body on any of these trucks. The clearances are pretty tight in most cases without it. Can it be done without a hauler body? Yes, but with some risk. Plus the hauler body gives you a lot of nice convenient storage. Unless you have a NEED for a standard bed I'd put a hauler body into my assumptions.

Also, MOST people who fulltime do change trailers over time. And usually they are heavier and bigger. Not always, but usually. You need to account for that and not start out right at the "edge". You are going to spend a lot of money on the truck. My advice is to set it up for a greater weight - both towing and pin - than you think you need now. And to put on a hauler body unless you have a very good reason not to. In the end, you are more likely to be satisfied doing it that way. JMO.

Jack, that is why we are strongly considering the hauler bed.  Cindi's pretty adamant that the dually is the biggest truck she's willing to drive (NO way we're getting a semi to haul an RV. I say, we should at least experience it before locking out that plan)... So, for now we are constrained by the 3500HDs from GM and Dodge (based on my research). As to going to a larger trailer... we could be, but we are really trying to get/select our "third one, first" researching during our pre-fulltime window of opportunity. We first looked at shorter/lighter rigs but we have moved up the size scale as we visited the shows and eliminated all of them for one reason or another.  We are up against a dollar limit that we are willing to spend, including outfitting gear, so the larger we look at, the older they willl have to be after a certain point. We're getting close to that peg at the current time.  

As to the truck itself, even with the heaviest rig (in our top three) we have looked at, puts us 2000 under CGVWR and 200 under RAWR using a GM 3500HD with a haulerbed and 60 gal aux fuel tank on board.  The RAM similarly equipped or even equipped with 4.10s is right at (to slightly over depending on % pin weight we use in the calculation) the RAWR even though our apples to apples fifth setup would not even cause it to sweat in the CGVWR area with over 3.5K to 8K still available depending the gearing. So without going to a bigger truck, available pin weight appears to be the restrictive number for our particular situation. Am I placing my priorities right here? My only other concern with larger trucks is the cost to insure them... something I have not looked into yet, but anecdotally they appear much more expensive.

So.... sell Cindi on the HDT... (on another thread) otherwise we are pretty much limited to those design constraints. I think she should drive one of those Volvos with the auto trans.before she swears off them! I'm game, if I can get a handle on the maintenance requirements for them, so they could be worked into the budget ahead of time to determine what compromises we might have to make, and if they are worth it or not.

Brian

PS: While we haven't ruled out a MH even though we are strongly leaning to the fiver, We do like the Winnebago 42E Journey. Cindi says she would have no qualms driving that... go figure

Brian, take a visit to the mountains of CO this summer and we will smoke you some ribs, discuss all the intricacies of fulltiming, give some driving lessons, let you look at our 5er and some of the things we have done to it, etc. Woodland Park, CO at 8500'. Nice and cool and a great location to see the mountains.

We can also share our views on 5er vs. MH. We have had both, and both should be considered. Which you choose depends, in my view, how you use it, and your personal preferences.

on edit:  Oh, and Terry is just down the mountain from us, so I'll be I can convince them to come and eat a few ribs as well.....

biggaRView wrote:

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Jack we'll have to take a raincheck this year. We'll be at Lake Catherine in AR this summer the week up to and including July 4th. Next year, I think we are going to try for the Hershey PA area, including the RV show just in case we can make the "2017 early start plan" come to fruition.  For now, we can continue to pick your brain and everybody else's too. 

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 Spoil-sport...

...but don't worry,  I'm sure that the Mayers and the Millers can still get together sometime.  Just have to work it around our workkamping schedules.

Terry